asuptardorne

Ingenious

genevagear

I've been meaning to share this experience concerning the two years service on a base 2018 Cayman. My car got stuck at the Rhode Island port due to the emissions certification delays so Porsche provided me with complimentary two-year service. When it came time I took the car to my local Porsche service center for it's two year service, which included a brake bleed, and I drove the car home and did not notice any issues. The next day when I drove the car the brake pedal travel had increased. I mean the point at which there is resistance in the pedal and the car starts to stop. The brake resistance also did not feel right, it was too mushy. Over two years of driving I got used to the reassuring feeling of the brakes in the car and things did not feel good after the brake bleed. It was obvious to me that there was air in the brake lines. I called the service center and took the car back in. After inspecting the vehicle they stated the brake pedal was fine and did not think the pedal travel was excessive. I insisted it was not ok and asked them to bleed the brakes again. They reluctantly performed another brake bleed and I noted they had completed it quickly. When they told me that the car was completed I looked it over and noticed a brake fluid stain on the inside surface of the passenger rear wheel, and asked them to clean it up. I drove the car home unhappy with the wheel stain but reassured because brake pedal feel was restored and the air was out of the brake lines. The next day the problem came back again. To me it was obvious that there was air in the brake lines and the service center performed a hurried passenger rear brake bleed only, and did not remove all the air trapped in the lines. I suspect that the second bleed most likely broke up some of the bubbles in the lines but the bubbles coalesced into a slug of air overnight. When I called the service center, and took the car back in, they insisted the brakes were fine and that the Porsche regional service manager get involved and inspect the vehicle. I got the impression they were suspicious of me and that I was trying to take advantage of the situation. I was annoyed because the simple problem of air in the brake lines was being turned into more of an issue than it really was. Unfortunately once air is introduced into brake lines it can be a real pain to get it out. I wanted the problem fixed so I paid $220 to have another brake bleed at another Porsche service center. I drove the car home with restored brake pedal feel and performance, and the problem has not returned.

I am surprised that the technicians and service manager at the first Porsche service center did not have a good reference point of how the brakes should feel in these cars. When I asked them to do a comparison with another vehicle they refused. I even went so far to ask them to do a comparison with a 2018 Cayman in the lot, and they still refused. Their rational was that the brakes will feel different in all the cars and a comparison is a waste of time. I disagree.

The other thing I have noticed with Porsche service centers is that they are acutely suspicious of customers that come in with a problem on cars under warranty. That suspicion forms a barrier to getting the problem addressed and fixed.

Mozella55

I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience, but it certainly doesn't surprise me.

Porsche owners, or any car owner, who don't do their own work often seem to view a Porsche mechanic as someone who, on their off hours, sits at the right hand of God. True, many of these guys are highly trained, but they're humans and sometimes people make mistakes. In addition, the dealership they work for are in it to make money, and often take a position favorable to themselves at the expense of the car owner. So, generally speaking your Porsche dealer and Porsche mechanic will do the job correctly, they never do it at low cost when it comes to either parts or labor. More often than not, a visit to a dealership is OK, but once in a while, the owner gets the run around and sometimes worse.

I remember driving back to Naval Air Station Miramar in 1968 in tandem with a squadron mate, each of us in the new 911's we bought after returning from our first combat cruise to Viet Nam. When we hit Kansas City, his car was due for it's first check (including an oil change) so he took it to the local Porsche dealership. He saw the mechanic take the car out for a test drive when the service was complete and was surprised to see him pushing the car back into the service bay after being gone for more than a few minutes. Then he saw the mechanic putting in oil. Turns out, he drained the oil, did the other checks, but he failed to put new oil in. An argument followed and they denied doing anything wrong. They refused to release the car until he paid. Since he was far from home and our leave was expiring soon, the dealer had him by the short hairs. He paid, we left, and I got to watch smoke coming out of his tailpipe all the way back to Southern California. The car never did perform properly, it continued to burn oil, and it was never a real pleasure to him. Every time he approached red line on a shift, he wondered if the damaged engine would shoot craps and toss the rods out onto the street. That's no way to go through life.

I admit to screwing up a few things in my long lifetime when fiddling around with DIY auto mechanics. But I'm generally not afraid of doing research, purchasing (or fabricating) special tools when necessary, and giving most jobs a go, even doing some major work on my Ferrari 360 Modena. That has served me well over the years and saved me tons of both money and time. Of course, sometimes there is no choice except to have a job done at a dealership, but those events are rarely satisfactory if for no other reason than they do things like ignore the DO NOT WASH stickers I put all over the inside and outside of my car. When at all possible, I fix my cars myself even though at age 75, it hurts a lot more than it used to.

At least you finally got your brake issue sorted out. But since the dealership failed to do the right thing, you now face an unpleasant memory next time you go there. Plus you will never trust them to do a job correctly, all of which adds up to make owning a Porsche less fun than it should be. That's a shame.

cerbomark

I have done fluid flush dozens of times on different cars and 3 previous Porsche s. Anyone try to bleed brakes without removing wheels? Some wheels seem to be open enough to reach both points? I usually take them off and clean up wheels at same time. I bet many dealers leave wheels on.
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CaymanMatt

Can you tell me what the correct pattern is? RR/LR/RF/LF?
Thanks!!

cerbomark

furthest to closest, correct RR/LR/RF/LF

CaymanMatt

Thank you for the feedback! It's appreciated.

1pcarnut

My 2018 is two years old now and it's time for this service. Does the ABS system need activating to do this job? Just wondering how much residual fluid is left in that part of the system or if it's a non-issue.

For brake fluid, any experience with Pentosin? ECS is offering this with their flush kit/package. They also offer the Audi/VW fluid which apparently is Porsche approved?

cerbomark

I am not certain but I think when Porsche does the fluid they are supposed to activate the ABS system. Do they,? don t know for sure. I do the flush myself because even IF they activate the system I don t believe with regular fluid change that missing a small amount would make any real world difference.

1pcarnut

I tend to agree. My thought was do the flush, take the car out and do a couple of hard stops to activate the ABS which I'm thinking should mix in the new fluid. Based on all the various feedback and info I'm seeing, the Endless seems to be the best overall choice. I'm a little concerned about reports that the Endless' higher viscosity might be an issue since apparently our system is designed for low viscosity.

Found this page with 112 fluids listed, can be sorted by temps, manufacturer etc.
https://www.lelandwest.com/brake-flu...ow=1&SF=1&ST=1

worf928

No. The work shop manual only directs activation of the ABS unit if it is replaced. I surmise that this is to remove any air bubbles from a new unit that would other wise not be flushed with a 'normal' flush.

No activation is called for for routine brake fluid replacement. The small amount left in the hydraulic unit is immaterial.

The purpose of brake fluid flushing is to remove the water that was absorbed through the seals by the brake fluid. With 99% of old fluid removed, the new fluid will suck the moisture out of the 1% still remaining in the ABS unit.

It's far more important to replace 99% of the fluid every two years (or three if you are in a super-dry climate) than it is to replace 99.9% less often than every two years.

And before someone asks: I flush brake fluid every year as part of pre-Winter maintenance.

As far as I can tell, and also have been led to believe, Porsche-labled fluid for the modern cars (991/981 and later) is re-labeled Pentosin Super DOT 4 LV.

The LV stands for low-viscosity. A couple of folks on the 991 board have had 'squeaky pedal syndrome' after using non-LV fluid which subsequently went away with a flush with LV.

modifieda4

nice! i've used the motive bleeder on my a4 for two decades. it works awesome. i try to keep it below 10psi.

1pcarnut

Excellent, thanks Dave! Ended up ordering the Endless fluid and Schwaben pressure bleeder from ECS. Dang that's expensive fluid!

matttheboatman

A couple of comments for Newbies to brake flushing. I was a newbie several years ago, now an expert

Get the "Pro" Motive Power Bleeder as it comes with a quality aluminum screw on cap, instead of the standard plastic one.

It seems like the antithesis, but what you are doing with the Motive Bleeder is adding air pressure to the system, for the purpose of getting air (and water and old fluid out). Yep, you are just screwing it onto the brake fluid reservoir and pumping it up - I pump mine up to 15#s, maybe you go to 20#. Then, you can go about bleeding each bleed screw since the system is now pressurized. If you take too much fluid out and over time, the pressure will drain down - just give it some more pumps and you are good to go.

Also, important - as a best practice, I fill my reservoir to the top, and make sure not to drain out so much that it completely empties the reservoir - that could introduce air to the master cylinder. A full reservoir is equal to about 3/4 of my catch can so I know not to go past a certain point. Or if you are super safe, just top it off after a couple of wheels.

And, to finish, I fill to the fill mark on the reservoir once I'm finish the bleed process.

I now do this procedure before every track event - which sometimes works out to only 2 weeks apart - as it is cheap insurance. I personally feel FRESH ANY brand is better than older ANY brand - so if you change it regularly as I do, no need to buy Castrol SRF for the track. I've used Mercedes Benz brand (its too clear to see), Porsche OEM, Motul 660.

Also Note; brake fluid is caustic over time - so don't spill any. Or, or if you do, clean it up with rag, and spray down area with water which which neutralizes the fluid.

Best Practices Review:
Change fluid often - use any quality brand - air bubbles and water build over time, not miles.
Top off the Reservoir before bleed process, and fill to the fill mark after.
Use the Pro Motive Bleeder
Get an 11m Flair Nut wrench if you can get one, less chance of stripping the bleeder valve
Have a water spray bottle to handy.

Greg Fishman

You won't go wrong following the info that matt just posted. My two cents on some options. When I used to race I used Castrol SRF and I would just bleed each caliper between events, no reason to do a full flush. If I was using a fluid with a lower wet boiling point then I would certainly look at doing a full flush. Castrol SRF (and similar high end fluids) are expensive to purchase but don't need the same frequency for a full flush.

https://thebuildjournal.com/tech-gui...parison-guide/