david05111

Hey Gents-

My father passed away in 2021 and inherited his Guards Red 1980 Targa SC. He bought it new, and it's all original with a little over 60k miles on it. I remember riding around in it as a kid. And now that it has passed to me, I need to start caring for it.

The first thing to say about it is that it hasn't run in probably 20 years. It's been garaged and has dust all over it. I have tinkered with it from time to time over the years (I had the brake calipers re-built, swapped the spark plugs, coils, and distributor, etc.), but I haven't managed to get it to start. There are a number of possible answers for this. The one I think most likely is that even though I added new fuel, the old stuff was still in the tank and may have clogged the injectors.

But regardless, I'm not sure why it won't actually start at the moment. I feel as though it'll probably end up in a local shop to have a once-over.

But here is where I come to the forum for advice. I remember speaking to at least one mechanic who specialized in Porsche probably 8-10 years ago at this point who suggested that the MFI engines (1980 was one, iirc) were extremely temperamental and that he wouldn't be surprised if it was advisable to simply swap the engine to a newer one instead of dealing with the hassle. I have NO idea if that's true or not, but it's stuck with me.

It was also suggested to me at one point that I consider carb-swapping it. It was suggested that that might be simpler than dealing with the MFI, even though it would be less efficient. The noise and the little bump in power would be worth it.

I have to admit that I LOVE the sound of engines like Magnus Walker's 977. I also know heard that he uses race engines in his cars, and has gone through quite a few of them. But the sound is simply intoxicating.

So, cutting to the chase:

1) How much trouble am I looking at here, as far as getting it running? Am I going to be selling a kidney to make it happen? I haven't a clue what work on these motors usually runs.

2) With the above in mind, are swaps out of MFI engines and into something more modern advisable in alternate? Perhaps a 993 or 964 carrera motor or something similar that is still air-cooled?

3) How advantageous and expensive are carb conversions? Can I get a similar noise to Magnus's car out of something like this or is that a path to tens of thousands of dollars of work?



Ideally, I'd like to get it running, have it completely serviced, get new tires on it, find an excellent detailer in town who can handle the paint, and just drive it now and then as it is. I wouldn't be completely against a carb swap if need be, if for no other reason than the noise.

tac911t

USA 1980 911's did not have MFI (mechanical Fuel Injection). MFI was through the 1973 model year. You would have a Bosch CIS fuel injection system (continuous injection system). I will let others explain
troubleshooting the system and getting it running. If the car has not run in 20 years, the entire file injection system probably needs to be removed, cleaned, and reinstalled, along with many other parts/systems.
And yes, it should get a good once-over by a Porsche mechanic to get an understanding of the number of items needing to be addressed to make it running and drivable.

wingless

Welcome to the forum. Sorry for your loss.

IMO, fix the problems and maintain the original parts / configuration.

Definitely sounds like a fuel problem. Drain / flush everything (SAFETY FIRST).

If after swapping the entire fuel up to the injectors for fresh it still isn't running correctly then there are companies that will clean / test / repair the existing injectors. While expensive it still costs less than swapping those parts for new.

Note that if the vehicle will remain parked for extended periods always use Ethanol free gasoline. Ethanol absorbs water and separates causing corrosion damage and preventing the engine from operating.

GoTime

Not to hijack the thread but what do you guys do if ethanol free isn’t available?

parkerfe

you can find ethanol free gas at stations near marinas

Tmistry

Hi David,
Condolences on your dad's passing, he was obviously a cool guy with good taste. I think it's great that you're now the owner of his originally purchased SC and I hope you're able to enjoy the car soon. You'll honor his memory when you can enjoy the car as he did.

I wouldn't put any faith in the opinion of one mechanic regarding your engine being temperamental. Conventional wisdom on air-cooled 911s was very different 10 year or so ago. I vividly recall my conversation with a very well regarded Porsche mechanic regaling me with horror stories of the 964 motors, not having head gaskets, leaking oil, and ideally being suited to an engine swap (barf). More than one expert told me to avoid the 964 due to a whole host of issues. Thankfully, I didn't listen 13 years ago, right before I bought my 964. The air-cooled cars are at this point, truly classics and they can be fully enjoyed with their idiosyncrasies intact.

As you're now the steward of your 911, the decisions are yours, of course, but it's an heirloom car and I'd simply get it back to running condition and enjoy it. If sound is important to you, which I understand, simply putting new headers (SSI) and a sport exhaust will make it sound fabulous.

These cars are tough as nails, so I wouldn't be scared off by the idea of an entire fuel system issue, major engine work, etc. You might just have a fuel feed issue and need a fuse and/or fuel pump. If you're not equipped to handle the DIY nature of the work, due to time, desire, space, whatever, I'd find a good independent Porsche shop, via the guys in your PCA (Porsche Club of America) chapter. Get the car to them and have them get it running. Join the PCA and let the local retired cognoscenti know your story, they'll gladly help you enjoy your car for the next 30 years.

Good luck and post some pictures!

Mark Salvetti

Not many places here in MA. Other than 1-gallon or 5-gallon cans, the nearest pumps are a Haffner's near the Haverhill/NH line. It's also $10/gal. See here: https://www.pure-gas.org/MA

Or just regularly use Stabil Marine (the blue stuff).

Mark

Mark Salvetti

David,

Welcome to Rennlist and sorry for your loss. Glad you kept the car. When my Dad died I didn't inherit a Porsche, just an F150. We kept it, and I enjoy driving it and thinking of him.

As others have said, your no-start is probably a fuel issue. The CIS is temperamental, but once running right it is fine. It does not like dirt or bad fuel. We can walk you through some basic tests to make sure the fuel pump is working and fuel is flowing. Tuning the system can be done at home but you may want a good shop to do it - you need some special gauges. Rebuilt components (fuel distributor and warm-up regulator) are available.

Where do you live? Carbs won't pass emissions if that is a concern. I think a good set of carbs is probably going to cost $3K, plus install and tuning. You should be able to get the CIS running for less, especially if you do the basic stuff yourself. And you will likely have other issues to deal with after not running for 20 years. I would get it running well stock, then worry about changing the injection.

One thing to do is remove the fuel sender from the top of the fuel tank. This will let you look inside. If there is rust in the tank, there is no point in continuing until you drain the tank and clean or replace it. If the car was in a garage and didn't see a lot of temperature extremes and moisture condensation, it may be fine. Mine was after 20 years.

Send us some photos too. Interior, engine compartment, front compartment with the carpeting removed. We may see other issues or modifications that you need to know about.

Mark

theiceman

here is what i would do ...... it will just give you a baseline ...

if those are the nylon fuel lines.. ( i dont remember ) id pull those injectors right out of the engine ( they just pull straight out if you can get a grip on them.. ). put them in 6 jars (baby food jars work great ) . remove the air filter and cover and lift the air plate with the ignition on, this should fire up the fuel pump... if you want you can unplug the CDI as the squeal is kind of annoying ( plugs into the box on your left as y0u look into the engine. )

now you can tell a lot from this

1. you should hear the pump running at the front of the engine .. yes/no
2. it should start spraying out of all 6 injectors yes/no
3. you should let it run till its clean if it sprays
4. if they spray they should fill all jars equally.

but all that said , if you look down in the tank and its full of rust , none of this is necessary

david05111

Thanks for all the kind words, all. I'll try and get some pictures up in the next few days. Since I forgot to mention it, I'm in the Jacksonville, FL area about 20 mins to Brumos. He didn't buy it there, but we know all about them.

I'm surprised to hear it's not MFI. For some reason, I've had that stuck in my head for like 15 years and never questioned it. I always thought 1980 was like the only year the SCs had MFI and not EFI. My mistake.

The car actually has 55k miles on it; I remembered that wrong.

I'll have a look at the gas tank in the next few days and see what's going on in there. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if it was rusty. That would suck, but it wouldn't surprise me. The car has been garaged, but as far as I know, it was never prepped for storage. He lived in FL, and so do I, so the garage definitely got a fair amount of humidity. The seats have surface mold, as do most of the other surfaces. Some time ago, I took the carpets out of the car and got rid of them. They were really pretty bad, and I figured I'd just replace them eventually anyway. When I have the detailer take care of the outside, I'll have them do the inside as well and clear all that I can up. Once that's done, I can think about replacing the carpet or re-upholstering some things.

I dread the idea of having to replace the fuel tank if it is really rusty in there, but if that's what it needs, so be it. That's a job for a pro though, even though I like to do light mechanical work on all my cars. I would suspect that if that is the case, most of the fuel system might need replacing as well. Tank level sending unit, lines, fuel pump maybe, filter, etc. At least I would know the stuff was solid once done, I guess.

I'll see what I can come up with this weekend on some answers, if I don't have them tomorrow.

If anyone is in the N Florida area and can recommend a great independent shop to have it trucked to, I'm all ears. Tentatively, I was going to consider having it towed to Mack Motorsports. He has an independent shop in the Riverside-ish area of Jax and we have taken several cars to him over the years for work, including a few AMGs. He does race-prep and maintain Porsches, so I think he's at least somewhat qualified to tinker with it if no one else has a must-go-to recommendation.

wingless

If the fuel tank interior is rusty, then it may be cleaned and coated.

It sounds like the vehicle is on a good path for return to service / enjoyment.

david05111

UPDATE: Got the car out of the garage to take some pics and get at the fuel tank. As you can see, the tank situation is not good. Just on the fuel level sender unit condition alone, what's in the tank is quite gross and I suspect quite rusty. I took a picture down into the tank, but there's not much to be gained from it I'm afraid. The current plan still holds. I'm going to see about getting the car flat-bedded to a local shop, have them drain the tank and assess it's condition, clean it if possible, and replace it if necessary. I know I'll need a new sending unit.

Forgive the copious cobwebs and dust all over it.

wingless

Thanks for the images. Beautiful vehicle. Best of luck with that car.

Car should be fine (terrific) after appropriate love. Start w/ a serious bath and interior cleaning, perhaps multiple passes on both.

Perform ALL of the listed maintenance items.

Mike Murphy

Sorry for your loss. My buddy has a father that’s still alive, but he did give his son his 63 356B. My buddy spent $100k to have someone restore it. Took 4.5 years, but is better than new. And it’s worth every dime he spent.

Your car, even if you have to spend thousands to get it running well, cleaned up, etc., will also be worth it.

Mark Salvetti

That will clean up nicely. Targa top looks nice and tight, so you don't need to deal with that. You can kill the mildew with Clorox wipes. Shouldn't hurt the vinyl, I've used them myself.

Tank doesn't look great. The sender can probably be saved. There is a small nut at the the bottom, remove that and the aluminum tube will slide off and expose the float assembly inside.

How much do you want to do yourself? If the tank is only brown and doesn't have large flakes of rust, it can probably be saved by you. Siphon out the fuel from the sender opening, then when it is almost empty you can safely drain the rest from underneath. Disconnect the fuel pump and fuel lines, then a few clamps in the trunk and you can pull it out.

You could try soaking the tank in apple cider vinegar, maybe drop a small chain through the opening so you cans slosh that around inside.

I'm just thinking a shop may not bother trying to save the tank, but new tanks are black painted steel and don't come with that textured finish (it's called schutz).

Next questions are the fuel lines and the fuel distributor (the circular device at top right in the engine compartment that feeds all the fuel injectors). They may not be as bad as the tank though. It wouldn't be that hard for you to pull the fuel distributor and send it out for a rebuild.

These steps would save you a ton of money vs what a shop will charge, but nothing wrong with using a competent shop either. You could try doing some of this yourself, get it to a certain point, and then haul it to a shop.

Just some ideas. If you want to try this, we can give you advice and send you links to related threads.

BTW, that red key is the valet key. It won't unlock the glove box or the front trunk. Black key is fully functional.

Mark