1970 911E w/ Heavy Modifications
09-10-2004, 02:05 AM
#16
Burning Brakes
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oohhh $12500 to start? I like that, wish I had a hole for a long hood in my garage! Ive seen alot worse for alot more, (like a purple metallic turbo look made out of a 73!) I would be concerned with the rust as everything else is nuts and bolts,
09-10-2004, 01:17 PM
#17
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Ok,I e-mailed the seller last night and he's willing to take $11,250 for the car, so with $2k in transmission work I would have $13,250 in it. I've just got to decide if I want to spend that much on it. I am going to call the shop that did the engine work and see if they remember the car and if so what they remember about it.
LATE last night I was shopping online, trying some obscure sites that I hadn't tried yet, and found a '72 911 S that the current owner imported from Italy in '84. It needs paint and he said it had some rust bubbles on the rockers directly in front of the doors. 23k on engine rebuild and the seats and carpet have recently been restored to original style. Running on weber carbs but he still has the MFI system. He's asking $6200 but doesn't have a digital camera and he's about 12 hours away from me. He's going to take some pictures and snail mail them to me. SOOOO...I'm going to have to look at this car before I decide about the '70 E. I really wanted an original '72 S and if the rust is manageable I may have to go that route.
LATE last night I was shopping online, trying some obscure sites that I hadn't tried yet, and found a '72 911 S that the current owner imported from Italy in '84. It needs paint and he said it had some rust bubbles on the rockers directly in front of the doors. 23k on engine rebuild and the seats and carpet have recently been restored to original style. Running on weber carbs but he still has the MFI system. He's asking $6200 but doesn't have a digital camera and he's about 12 hours away from me. He's going to take some pictures and snail mail them to me. SOOOO...I'm going to have to look at this car before I decide about the '70 E. I really wanted an original '72 S and if the rust is manageable I may have to go that route.
09-10-2004, 04:10 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
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I'd lean more towards the 70 2.8 if the PPI goes well; you won't be able to build a similar car anywhere near that amount, nor will you be able to fix up a rusty S in that ballpark.
09-10-2004, 05:35 PM
#19
Ditto. you can pour megabucks into these old cars that "just need a little work." Cars that have been conscienciously maintained can be quite reliable and reaonable to maintain... even at 30+ years old. maintenance deferred cars can be a total nightmare.... parts are really expensive and sometimes difficult to find, and guys who know how to work on these old cars are few and far between... otherwise good mechanics who are not familiar with all the intricacies of these cars can really get themselves twisted up.... and thats $$$ out of your pocket
09-11-2004, 12:35 PM
#20
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Ok guys, next question:
It sounds like this 901 is not the transmission to be mated to this high torque / horsepower engine. What is involved in swapping a 915 tranny in? Do the mounts, clutch etc need to be changed? Does an adapter plate have to be used or will it bolt right up to the engine? I've found a couple of low mileage / rebuilt 915's online for $1,000 - $1,500.
Would this be the route you guys would go? Or would you have the 901 rebuilt?
This is going to be a street car, not a track car. I have considered that if the 901 is rebuilt then I have the opportunity to optimize the gearing for this engine and its application. I think that would be a plus. Not sure.
I'm going to try to look at the car in the next 3 days. Hopefully tomorrow.
It sounds like this 901 is not the transmission to be mated to this high torque / horsepower engine. What is involved in swapping a 915 tranny in? Do the mounts, clutch etc need to be changed? Does an adapter plate have to be used or will it bolt right up to the engine? I've found a couple of low mileage / rebuilt 915's online for $1,000 - $1,500.
Would this be the route you guys would go? Or would you have the 901 rebuilt?
This is going to be a street car, not a track car. I have considered that if the 901 is rebuilt then I have the opportunity to optimize the gearing for this engine and its application. I think that would be a plus. Not sure.
I'm going to try to look at the car in the next 3 days. Hopefully tomorrow.
09-12-2004, 06:17 PM
#21
If the 70 doesn't have any rust or has manageable rust, get that one. Rust is not a trivial matter with early 911s.
The 901 is only a liability if you apply too much torque to it. After all, you'll be in control of that, not anyone else. Don't worry about upgrading unitl you have the car. With any pre-owned car, you'll spend a few $$$ getting the small things taken care of. A 2.8 engine (are you sure?) is not an inexpensive modification. Be glad someone else had to pay "pre-depreciated" dollars.
Sherwood
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars
The 901 is only a liability if you apply too much torque to it. After all, you'll be in control of that, not anyone else. Don't worry about upgrading unitl you have the car. With any pre-owned car, you'll spend a few $$$ getting the small things taken care of. A 2.8 engine (are you sure?) is not an inexpensive modification. Be glad someone else had to pay "pre-depreciated" dollars.
Sherwood
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars
09-13-2004, 12:06 PM
#22
Agree. No reason to swap the 901 if you are only street driving the car. Don't jump on 1st gear, don't pop the clutch, shift and apply power smoothly, and generally drive it like you own it, and It will be ok for a long time. The re-inforced backplate is a good investment.
A pristine 70-72S with excellent history and impecable origionality is a $25K-$30K car at best. A good solid car that 'looks right" but is not documented and has clearly had extensive work done is probably about high teens to maybe $20K if it really jumps.
IMHO, a car that was "shipped from Italy" will probably be hard to document. Who knows what it is? Nobody is going to pay top dollar for a potential mongrel.... realistically this is probably a $15K to $18K fully restored.... I really doubt you can do anything close to a full resto for $10-12K... double is probably more like it... just advising caution...
A pristine 70-72S with excellent history and impecable origionality is a $25K-$30K car at best. A good solid car that 'looks right" but is not documented and has clearly had extensive work done is probably about high teens to maybe $20K if it really jumps.
IMHO, a car that was "shipped from Italy" will probably be hard to document. Who knows what it is? Nobody is going to pay top dollar for a potential mongrel.... realistically this is probably a $15K to $18K fully restored.... I really doubt you can do anything close to a full resto for $10-12K... double is probably more like it... just advising caution...
09-13-2004, 01:23 PM
#23
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The VIN number and engine number confirm that it is indeed an "S" model. VIN is 9112300333 & engine stamping is 911/53. It also has the red engine shroud. The owner is not a Porschephile but has just enjoyed it as an extra car. Bruce Anderson's valuations look something like this:
'70 E: $8015/ $9113 / $12,200
'72 S: $11,793 / $13409 / $17,950
In Poor / Good / Excellent condition. The '72 S is below Poor condition and the '70 E is somewhwhere between Good & Excellent.
The NADA values are higher but have about the same gap between the two models. My financing company uses the NADA values.
I want a car to keep for a long time and a car that will continue to be valuable as the years go by. The car that is the most desireable is the '72 S. No matter what condition the '70 E is in or what modifications have been done to it, it will never have the VIN and engine stampings that say it is a '72 S. I think there were only 1700 '72 S's manufactured, who knows how many are actually left. I've got a lot of pictures of the S if anyone wants to look at them and give me their opinions. It is a ROUGH car. The sunroof has leaked onto the headliner and it is in dire need of repaint. Additionally the passenger door has had some bondo work and will need to be re-skinned to be done properly. I've never done this although I have done lots of body work.
My budget for financing is $13k tops. I don't think I could find another '72 S for $12 or 13k that would be in the same condition as this one with a new headliner and body work that would total $10 or $11k.
I like the '70 E and I'm sure it would probably be more reliable after doing the tranny work because the car has been well maintained and documented, but I also want to consider the investment value of the vehicle and I think the '72 shines more in that area because the '70 has so many modifications.
Damn cars. I really need to make a decision TODAY because the '72 S is in the New Mexico / Colorado area and I have the opportunity to travel there this weekend with my father-in law and pull it back with his Suburban. It's about 12 hours from Arkansas. If I decide on it I need to schedule my vacation today and I need to wire the seller a retainer to hold the car.
'70 E: $8015/ $9113 / $12,200
'72 S: $11,793 / $13409 / $17,950
In Poor / Good / Excellent condition. The '72 S is below Poor condition and the '70 E is somewhwhere between Good & Excellent.
The NADA values are higher but have about the same gap between the two models. My financing company uses the NADA values.
I want a car to keep for a long time and a car that will continue to be valuable as the years go by. The car that is the most desireable is the '72 S. No matter what condition the '70 E is in or what modifications have been done to it, it will never have the VIN and engine stampings that say it is a '72 S. I think there were only 1700 '72 S's manufactured, who knows how many are actually left. I've got a lot of pictures of the S if anyone wants to look at them and give me their opinions. It is a ROUGH car. The sunroof has leaked onto the headliner and it is in dire need of repaint. Additionally the passenger door has had some bondo work and will need to be re-skinned to be done properly. I've never done this although I have done lots of body work.
My budget for financing is $13k tops. I don't think I could find another '72 S for $12 or 13k that would be in the same condition as this one with a new headliner and body work that would total $10 or $11k.
I like the '70 E and I'm sure it would probably be more reliable after doing the tranny work because the car has been well maintained and documented, but I also want to consider the investment value of the vehicle and I think the '72 shines more in that area because the '70 has so many modifications.
Damn cars. I really need to make a decision TODAY because the '72 S is in the New Mexico / Colorado area and I have the opportunity to travel there this weekend with my father-in law and pull it back with his Suburban. It's about 12 hours from Arkansas. If I decide on it I need to schedule my vacation today and I need to wire the seller a retainer to hold the car.
Last edited by L8 Apex; 09-13-2004 at 03:00 PM.
09-13-2004, 01:53 PM
#24
Doing a PPI over the internet is tough. Take it to a Porsche garage for an independent appraisel of what's needed. Leaking sunroof means water gets insidei. Water ends up on floor. The floor pan is susceptible to rust. Peel back the floor mats and poke around with a screwdriver.
Nothing is beyond repair, but it's a matter of what you're prepared to handle.
Sherwood
Nothing is beyond repair, but it's a matter of what you're prepared to handle.
Sherwood
09-13-2004, 02:51 PM
#25
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I resized the pics so they would show the detail.
The owner still has all of the MFI components, he said he replaced them years ago when he was driving the car 50+ miles per day so he would get better gas mileage. According to him it all worked when he took it off, he just wanted to conserve fuel. He also has 2 of the original Fuchs and he has the seals for the front & rear windows and the sunroof, as he intended on having the headliner replaced but never got around to it.
This car has electric windows. I'm not sure what would be involved in replacing those components into the new door but I imagine they would just bolt up.
RESOLUTION:
I think I decided at lunch that my wife & I will go ahead and take a vacation to Santa Fe and go look at the car while we're in that area. If I like it then I'll get a car dolly from U-Haul and bring it back. If I don't like it then I'll come back and probably purchase the '70 911E that started this whole thread. Thanks a million everyone! I will post the details when a transaction of some type occurs.
HOWEVER: Feel free to continue to give me advice / opinions on these cars as I'll be continuing to check this thread for at least the rest of the week. You guys have all been great and your advice has been SOOOO valuable. Thanks so much and I'll try to contribute to the Rennlist community wherever I can to "give back" a little.
The owner still has all of the MFI components, he said he replaced them years ago when he was driving the car 50+ miles per day so he would get better gas mileage. According to him it all worked when he took it off, he just wanted to conserve fuel. He also has 2 of the original Fuchs and he has the seals for the front & rear windows and the sunroof, as he intended on having the headliner replaced but never got around to it.
This car has electric windows. I'm not sure what would be involved in replacing those components into the new door but I imagine they would just bolt up.
RESOLUTION:
I think I decided at lunch that my wife & I will go ahead and take a vacation to Santa Fe and go look at the car while we're in that area. If I like it then I'll get a car dolly from U-Haul and bring it back. If I don't like it then I'll come back and probably purchase the '70 911E that started this whole thread. Thanks a million everyone! I will post the details when a transaction of some type occurs.
HOWEVER: Feel free to continue to give me advice / opinions on these cars as I'll be continuing to check this thread for at least the rest of the week. You guys have all been great and your advice has been SOOOO valuable. Thanks so much and I'll try to contribute to the Rennlist community wherever I can to "give back" a little.
09-13-2004, 03:40 PM
#26
MHO?
Save yourself 12 hours traveling time now, but ask someone on this forum or the other Porsche forums (Pelican, Early 911S Registry) to take a cursory look at this car (PCA members in the area too). Maybe even find a reputable independent repair shop in NM not affiliated with this car to perform a PPI. You pay for it. You get the report, not the current owner. If the owner balks, walk away. If he's forthcoming, shouldn't be a problem. You've got 4 days for a PPI before the weekend, but ~$6,000 for a 72S sounds either like a good deal or a rust bucket.
Then, if it looks okay. Hop in your Suburban, drive the 12 hrs and complete the deal. This can be potentially costly for you if you can't perform the needed inspections.
In the case of the 70E, repeat the above (except for the drive).
Sherwood
Save yourself 12 hours traveling time now, but ask someone on this forum or the other Porsche forums (Pelican, Early 911S Registry) to take a cursory look at this car (PCA members in the area too). Maybe even find a reputable independent repair shop in NM not affiliated with this car to perform a PPI. You pay for it. You get the report, not the current owner. If the owner balks, walk away. If he's forthcoming, shouldn't be a problem. You've got 4 days for a PPI before the weekend, but ~$6,000 for a 72S sounds either like a good deal or a rust bucket.
Then, if it looks okay. Hop in your Suburban, drive the 12 hrs and complete the deal. This can be potentially costly for you if you can't perform the needed inspections.
In the case of the 70E, repeat the above (except for the drive).
Sherwood
09-13-2004, 03:57 PM
#27
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Well, my in-laws have a condo in Santa Fe and they were planning on going this weekend, leaving Friday and coming back Wed. After I mentioned that we could go pick this car up and bring it back my wife got set on going so now we're planning on going anyway because we haven't been out there in a couple of years, but her parents go quite frequently.
So, I think we're going to go out on "vacation" and I'll go take a look at this car since we'll "happen" to be in this area. We didn't really take a vacation this summer and my 2-year old has never been out there with us so I think she'll enjoy it.
If it seems solid, I'll buy it. If it doesn't , I won't. But now it seems like I've gotten myself into taking this trip regardless!
So, I think we're going to go out on "vacation" and I'll go take a look at this car since we'll "happen" to be in this area. We didn't really take a vacation this summer and my 2-year old has never been out there with us so I think she'll enjoy it.
If it seems solid, I'll buy it. If it doesn't , I won't. But now it seems like I've gotten myself into taking this trip regardless!
09-13-2004, 04:26 PM
#28
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Some more thoughts as you ponder this decision.
As a guy with a car similar to the 70E (mine is a 71T with 3.2, carrera suspension front and rear, 951 brakes, 915, etc) I have a few thoughts. I have never reqretted all the mods to my car and it's worth far more to me than if I tried to sell it. I never worry about what happens to it since it started life as a lowly T. If I crash it I just take all the bits off and find another clean chassis to hang them on (note: I would rather not go down this road, all things considered :-)
An original 72S would certainly be a great car. In MY CASE if I were to get one of them I would want one of the very nice examples and would work to keep it that way. Buying one that's marginal and has a questionable pedigree would make me nervous. I like the idea of having a car that's inherently valuable and worth preserving, but buying a distressed one and hoping to someday restore it to its former glory would be a big responsibility. And at the end of the day you can never do anything to increase its performance potential. So the uniquness and collectability value of it has to be worth more to you than its performance potential. If you are clear on that you have made your decision. But I would still be wary of that particular S.
I have driven a few early S cars and I love the high revving S motor. They are wonderful cars. But for MY MONEY the 15-20K I have invested in my car over the last 12 years is worth more to me. An early car with a big motor will really go. Faster than that stock 72S and if you want it to go faster you can happily upgrade it all day long. I plan to keep this R Gruppe-ish (not an official member) a long time and am looking forward to the outlandish mods that I will do in its future :-) Twin plug 3.4 perhaps? A 993 motor maybe? RSR fenders? Why not?
To comment on the 915 vs 901: I really loved the original 901 that came with my car. It was one of my favorite things about the car. I didn't even mind the weak 1st gear synchros since it taught me how to double clutch into first when I needed to. Actually my 66MGB taught me how to double clutch--come to think of it, the DKW my dad had around in my formative years taught me how to double clutch, but I digress. Anyway, I loved the 901 for its vintage feel. When I went to the 3.2, I was pursuaded to go 915. Granted my engine has more torque than your 2.8, but it was definately the right decision. 12 years of hard labor and now the 2nd gear synchros are finally getting soft, only really noticeable on the track when the downshifts have to be just right (turn 11 at Laguna Seca comes to mind) Net/Net, since your car is going to be a street car and not a track car (famous last words.. how many of us actually end up being completely correct about what we THINK we know when we go down this path.... "I just want something stock that I can drive on weekends, etc." LOL) you are probably ok with the 901. Just go easy in first gear as has been pointed out by several.
Vol
As a guy with a car similar to the 70E (mine is a 71T with 3.2, carrera suspension front and rear, 951 brakes, 915, etc) I have a few thoughts. I have never reqretted all the mods to my car and it's worth far more to me than if I tried to sell it. I never worry about what happens to it since it started life as a lowly T. If I crash it I just take all the bits off and find another clean chassis to hang them on (note: I would rather not go down this road, all things considered :-)
An original 72S would certainly be a great car. In MY CASE if I were to get one of them I would want one of the very nice examples and would work to keep it that way. Buying one that's marginal and has a questionable pedigree would make me nervous. I like the idea of having a car that's inherently valuable and worth preserving, but buying a distressed one and hoping to someday restore it to its former glory would be a big responsibility. And at the end of the day you can never do anything to increase its performance potential. So the uniquness and collectability value of it has to be worth more to you than its performance potential. If you are clear on that you have made your decision. But I would still be wary of that particular S.
I have driven a few early S cars and I love the high revving S motor. They are wonderful cars. But for MY MONEY the 15-20K I have invested in my car over the last 12 years is worth more to me. An early car with a big motor will really go. Faster than that stock 72S and if you want it to go faster you can happily upgrade it all day long. I plan to keep this R Gruppe-ish (not an official member) a long time and am looking forward to the outlandish mods that I will do in its future :-) Twin plug 3.4 perhaps? A 993 motor maybe? RSR fenders? Why not?
To comment on the 915 vs 901: I really loved the original 901 that came with my car. It was one of my favorite things about the car. I didn't even mind the weak 1st gear synchros since it taught me how to double clutch into first when I needed to. Actually my 66MGB taught me how to double clutch--come to think of it, the DKW my dad had around in my formative years taught me how to double clutch, but I digress. Anyway, I loved the 901 for its vintage feel. When I went to the 3.2, I was pursuaded to go 915. Granted my engine has more torque than your 2.8, but it was definately the right decision. 12 years of hard labor and now the 2nd gear synchros are finally getting soft, only really noticeable on the track when the downshifts have to be just right (turn 11 at Laguna Seca comes to mind) Net/Net, since your car is going to be a street car and not a track car (famous last words.. how many of us actually end up being completely correct about what we THINK we know when we go down this path.... "I just want something stock that I can drive on weekends, etc." LOL) you are probably ok with the 901. Just go easy in first gear as has been pointed out by several.
Vol
09-13-2004, 04:52 PM
#29
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Thanks for the thoughts!
Just curious, how often do you drive your car and how reliable has it proven to be? Is the 3.2 stock?
My intentions are to use the car daily to and from work, not right away but in the course of the next year I'll need to be able to do so.
Just curious, how often do you drive your car and how reliable has it proven to be? Is the 3.2 stock?
My intentions are to use the car daily to and from work, not right away but in the course of the next year I'll need to be able to do so.
09-13-2004, 05:02 PM
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L8,
LOL I just commented on your questions over on the other thread you have going :-)
It's been VERY reliable. The 3.2 was a Parts Heaven motor with 100k miles on it. It has another 100k on it with nothing but tune ups ever since. It has worn valve guides, but oil is cheap.
The whole car was overall very reliable to drive daily for 10 years. It never broke down and left me stranded. well not during the commute. It did break down on one of my many Seattle/SF road trips, and I had to replace the alternator in a motel parking lot... But that was only once and I made that round trip 7-10 times. It was reliable, but it was not cheap. Things like the CV joints got old and I had them replaced with new parts rather than used. About 1000.00 installed as I recall. I probably spent 1500-2000/year on maint. during that 10 year period, and lived with a lot of stuff most people would not consider. (like no AC and terrible overall ventilation, foggy windows in the winter, too much heat or not enough heat, etc).
It was not an easy 10 years, but I will never forget them. And I am spoiled now forever. I just can't drive a practical, boring car no matter how economical it is... :-)
Vol
LOL I just commented on your questions over on the other thread you have going :-)
It's been VERY reliable. The 3.2 was a Parts Heaven motor with 100k miles on it. It has another 100k on it with nothing but tune ups ever since. It has worn valve guides, but oil is cheap.
The whole car was overall very reliable to drive daily for 10 years. It never broke down and left me stranded. well not during the commute. It did break down on one of my many Seattle/SF road trips, and I had to replace the alternator in a motel parking lot... But that was only once and I made that round trip 7-10 times. It was reliable, but it was not cheap. Things like the CV joints got old and I had them replaced with new parts rather than used. About 1000.00 installed as I recall. I probably spent 1500-2000/year on maint. during that 10 year period, and lived with a lot of stuff most people would not consider. (like no AC and terrible overall ventilation, foggy windows in the winter, too much heat or not enough heat, etc).
It was not an easy 10 years, but I will never forget them. And I am spoiled now forever. I just can't drive a practical, boring car no matter how economical it is... :-)
Vol