911Dave

All currently available dino oils perform the same. They are all excellent and none of them would cause your oil temperature to go from 210 to 300+. Your problem is not the brand of oil you used. PERIOD.

On the track, you might see slightly (maybe 10 degrees or so) lower temperature on a hot day if you use synthetic oil. Synthetics also resist thermal breakdown better than dino oils, so you can get away with higher temps.

Your overheating problem is being caused by something else, not the oil.

Edward

Wow, Pete. Thanks for the insight! I've heard of of other racers swearing by Kendall GT1, which is why I use it in my Trackmeister. But I didn't know about the grease ...and nice to know that you, as a shop with far more exposure than individual owners, have had such good results. I've got to replace front rotors so will be doing a bearing repack. Will try and find that grease ...thanks for the recommendation!

Edward

Peter Zimmermann

Brant: You're absolutely correct, I'm sad that when you pour the stuff it looks like every other oil! However, other than the coloration, I'm told that the formulas for lubricity and detergent are virtually identical. I've noticed no change in consumption, or the rate at which the oil gets darker as it cleans, in my '82. When the oil color was changed I got a flyer, that explained the thought process, from my supplier, but that has been one piece of paper, that I wish that I had kept, that has become lost.

Edward: You're very welcome! When you do those bearings try to let them soak overnight to get all traces of the old grease out of them, or just replace them if they've done significant miles. I think that NARW, (818) 881-1222, in Reseda uses Blue, and they will probably sell/give you enough to pack your bearings - maybe a Smucker's jar worth. We used to buy it in 35 pound drums - it went into everything including replacement CV joints! Cheers!
Pete

ron mcatee

oldtree, my bra was like yours and restricted air flow to the cooler. I made a template and cut out the area just above the fog light . I made it large enough to allow perpheral air to get by from all directions and go through the slot in the valance. I found some sturdy, but fine mesh (almost the size of screen wire, but nylon so it can be sewn, to allow air to go through it and had an upholstery shop sew the piece into the bra. I also made the same cut out for the left side to make the bra look nice cosmetically. That alone will drop your temps. in south central Texas it gets hot and it really helped me. Anytime you have air restrictions, heat will be your nemesis.

Mysterytrain

I'm surprised none of you old timers mentioned this. The early SC's had a problem with the oil pump scavenging oil. This is from PCA...
'Question: The last time I did a PCA DE (Watkins Glen), I had trouble after about 4-5 laps with engine overheating and loss of power. I have been told that the early SC had issues with oil pickup and the sump would fill with oil, forcing the crank to fight its way through, and negating the cooling system. Aftor the car cools, it runs fine, and has no problems with normal street driving. There are supposedly two upgrades for this problem: one is a later model sump pickup, the other is an update to the carrera chain tensioners to reduce the waste oil through them which ends up in the sump. I haven't been able to locate info on part numbers or suppliers for these upgrades. Any guidance before the season starts will be much appreciated. Thanks!

Reply:Early SCs had trouble with too much oil in the sump after high speed driving, due primarily to the pressure relief piston spring. This was changed as of engine number 6282539, so you should have the correct spring. I would drain the oil, remove the sump plate and make sure nothing is plugging up the pump. Look at the orientation of the sump plate. Did you change your oil just before the DE? If the drain plug is in the wrong position, it can block the oil pump pickup. Remove the pressure relief piston to make sure it is not stuck. It is the vertical plug at the front of the engine in the right case half near the center. You should get a long spring, a guide sleeve that fits in the spring, and a piston that looks like a thimble. Make sure it moves freely. There is also a safety relief on the left side case that has a stiffer spring with no guide, and the same piston. If either one sticks, you will get your problem.
The sump screen that you talk about with the built-in venturi is no longer available, but the number is 930 107 314 00. They build the venturis onto the oil pumps now.
The last part is the fitting that holds the banjo bolts on the cam tower for the cam oil lines. This is a must upgrade, and the number is 901 105 361 01. You will need one for each side.
I would look for problems either in your pressure relief or oil pickup, as the last upgrades alone would not correct your problem. Please let us know what you find.

Chris Powell - PCA WebSite - 3/21/2006

racer

While I think the right approach is to increase airflow/ducting to the cooler, you might consider another thought to your approach OldTee.. How is your driving? Are you spending a lot of time in the high rpm ranges in, say 3rd, when you could be driving at slightly lower revs in 4th? Just a thought. I had "oil temp" problems in my 914 early on in my driving. Because i had learned to take corners in a particular gear, I kept doing that, even though my speeds else where were increasing. I eventually learned that the corners taken in 2nd ( as a beginner) would be done in 3rd as i learned to carry more speed and so on.

When all these other "fixes" don't help, its time to cure the cooling problem with the "bag hammer" by mounting a center mount front cooler

Oldtee

Thanks Chris, I did this mod by changing the oil cover.

Oldtee

Interesting. I was at Summit Point Shenandoah Circuit this WE in near perferct weather. Car was doing double duty. First day was fine. Second day I began taking some turns in second and was at a higher RPM, also the temps the second day were 10 to 15F higher. I'm getting ready for Watkins Glenn in late June (spots still available for a great Potomac Region DE) and will see what develops with the changes I am making. Thanks for all the replys.

Capt. Carrera

Do you have the seal around the Carrera cooler?

bgiere

Peter, do a google search for Brad Penn oils...you might like to see it...it may be familiar to you...

Charles Navarro

There is another oil thread going in this forum and over on pelican. If you're looking for the old kendall, the green stuff, search for brad penn or penn grade. Specifically, their 20w50 Racing Semi-Synthetic. It's the genuine article- looks and smells like old kendall too!

You choice of oil can affect oil temperatures. We've seen lower oil temperatures running Royal Purple and even lower (and the ability to shed the heat faster) with Mobil 1, at least their v-twin 20w50 formulation. I also do believe that 10w40 is not the right viscosity for your 911, especially with track time.

Peter Zimmermann

Brant: Thank you for the post! Man, this is a learning experience, I can already see a new chapter for the 9th edition of my book starting to form! Obviously the content of my posts involve cars that are 3.2 liters and older. I also know that Zinc has been removed from most modern oils because the stuff clogs catalytic converters, which in turn makes car manufacturers very grumpy. Can you imagine the cost to replace the catalytic converter, on every car you've built over a five year span, under warranty. No wonder the oil companies, who want those million barrel contracts, took out the metal. With the zinc, and its ability to protect metal to metal surfaces, gone, manufacturers have switched to roller cams, etc., to allow the new oil to work. Restorers of historic cars now find recommendations from cam manufacturers (such as Engle), for flat tappet design (iron cam + steel tappets) engines, to use diesel oil for break-in because of its higher zinc content. Delo 400 is easily had, and GM even makes an engine oil supplement (EOS) that has a high zinc content that might come in handy for break-in work. Because of the 911's incredible longevity, and the design and material of its internal components, I seriously doubt that we'll see a lubricity-related rash of failures, on well-maintained, street driven cars, with the new, low or non, zinc oils.
Pete

Charles Navarro

We have seen a rash of cam problems arising in waves every time the API lowers the threshold for Zn and P in motor oils in the vw arena. I've heard the same from v8 guys. That in combination with increasingly cheaper imported aftermarket parts doesn't help any. I agree that a diesel oil is a great detergent break in oil, especially since it doesn't have any moly (at least as far as the diesel oils I have tested are concerned). I like delvac 1300 super since it has added boron which is great for aircooled engines, helps pull more heat and allows the oil to shed the heat faster. I just recently started using aviation piston engine non-detergent break-in lube, it's the best non-detergent available and has some really highly refined parrafin base- I just add in a bottle of GM's EOS zddp additive.

Peter Zimmermann

Charles: Yes, V8s are definitely suffering from zinc reduction. I have friends in L.A. who do engine restorations for older cars, many are flat tappet, iron cam designs. They were having cams go flat until they found the cause - oil with little or no zinc. They now do all start-ups/break-ins using diesel oil, sometimes with EOS. Following a proper break-in period they report no problems with the low-zinc oils. They also feel that '89 and earlier 911s are not going to be harmed by "new" oil, because the material used for cams and rockers is of a very high quality. Thanks to you and others I've found some pretty interesting info, although it is by no means properly collated at this time.

Some general comments that I hope are appropriate for this thread. It appears that Kendall's run with their dark green oil came to a stop in the late '90s, about the time that I sold my shop. In '97 Witco Chemical (producers of Kendall products) sold to Sunoco. Apparently different oils are made from different base oils called stock. After the Witco sale the supply of stock for Kendall GT-1 was no longer available (reason unknown), and Kendall (now Sunoco Kendall) was forced to use a different stock. Although the formulas weren't altered by much the color changed, and so did some of it's characteristics. It's detergent action (particle suspension), which I've always praised Kendall highly for, was largely unaffected. Next, Conoco and Phillips Petroleum merged, and somehow Sun Oil Co. (Sunoco) ended up under their banner, which is how Conoco came to control the Kendall name. It is unknown what then happened to "Kendall" motor oil, or whether it was unchanged from its Sunoco formula. Along came Brad Penn, who bought the Kendall refinery in upstate PA, and is currently the only refinery in the country that does the entire formulation in house. They produce, among many products, an oil known as SJ 20/50, and it's not to be confused as a like product to the real, original Kendall. Rather, it's a competitor to oils like Valvoline, Castrol, Pennzoil, etc. In addition, Brad Penn produces an oil called Penn Grade 1 Racing 20/50. This oil is very much like the original Kendall, including its rich, deep green color. One major difference is that the original never had a synthetic component, Penn Grade 1 does. The mix is small, the best info that I've gotten so far is that the amount of synthetic in Penn Grade 1 is more than 5%, but less than 20%. No further info was offered regarding the mix, but the oil has been dyno'd by a number of race teams, all producing very satisfactory results. The low zinc content has been offset somewhat by the added synthetic, there are no worries about lubricity, and detergent levels are superior.

I discovered one more thing, due to sub-contractors, corporate games, sales, mergers and other nonsense, until recently the formula for Kendall Blue Grease, a lithium based grease that I've used exclusively for more than 25 years, was locked away in a safe somewhere. Through additional mergers, sales, etc., Brad Penn now has that formula, and the Blue Grease they're turning out is the real thing! They call it High-Temp Blue, and it replicates the old Kendall Blue Grease. One of the industry engineers that I've spoken with refused to comment on oils like the "new" Kendall, Castrol GTX, etc., but from what I've learned Castrol still hasn't grasped the need for a clean engine, the new Kendall is just another quality oil designed to meet the specs for catalytic converters, and Valvoline is also OK. Yes, we've moved ahead. Are we better off? I guess so, if you can afford a car that was designed and built around synthetic oil. For older cars, and our beloved 911s specifically, the situation has become somewhat murky. Are my restoration friends, with over a hundred years of experience under their roof, correct when they say that they think we're OK? Would the oil companies create a product for the big car manufacturers, to the detriment of enthusiasts everywhere? Possibly. Is it now wise to risk the occasional drip and switch from a "new" oil to a synthetic. Possibly. Except for Castrol and Pennzoil engines, where all bets are off. In either case, if a switch to say, Mobil 1, or even Bradd Penn's Penn Grade 1, the detergent action might be so drastic that, as the sludge inside a high-mileage engine starts to melt away, that engine's ability to have the rings seal again might be a hopeless situation, sometimes leading to a rebuild that might be somewhat premature. Murky, indeed.
Pete

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Hi:

I spoke with a gentleman named Mike Holloway (lubemaster77@Pelican) who is a genuine lubrication/oil specialist and he was generous enough to allow me to post his replies here on Rennlist. This guy is VERY sharp.
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Mike said:

The EPA has stayed away from regulating the chemical and physical properties of motor oils. As such, there are no EPA standards regulating Zn, S and P in motor oils. The EPA prefers to regulate emission and fuel economy requirements for the OEMs, which requires them to modify their equipment and lubricants in order to meet the emission and CAFÉ requirements. The OEMs work thru ILSAC and API to address the technical concerns of the lubricants (with respect to the mechanical modifications that the OEMS are planning on implementing) and establish industry standards for maximum and minimum levels of P and S. The one exception to this is in the area of fuels, where the EPA is taking a two pronged approach setting standards for emissions, and certain chemical composition of the fuel with respect to sulfur and aromatics. But lets not go down the fuels path just now. The take away is that it is a cooperative effort of industry participants that set the chemical and physical standards, not the EPA. And these standards are set so that OEMs can make the necessary mechanical modifications to the vehicles so that they can meet emission and CAFÉ standards.

The OEMs would really like to see phosphorous levels of 0.05% wt in engine oils to address the issue of catalyst poisoning from any phosphorous that might be carried thru in exhaust gases. There is industry concern about the ability of 0.05% phosphorus levels being able to provide adequate antiwear protection (remembering that the P comes from the ZDDP antiwear/antioxidant chemistry), especially in older model vehicles. For the current SM category, ILSAC and API have agreed to P levels of no more than 0.08% wt. and no less than 0.06% wt. Sulfur limits have been set at 0.5%max for 0W and 5W multigrades and 0.7% max for 10W multigrades. There are no standards for Zn. Note that an oil has to meet these requirements if they seek API certification or claim they meet API performance categories. Since these elements are not regulated by the government (EPA), an oil can be made with levels exceeding the standards but they will not be able to get API certification or claim that they meet API standards. The OEMS will also not honor warranty issues with these oils.

Regarding the primary and secondary zinc issue. Mixed zincs are used because they decompose at different temperatures (ZDDPs must decompose to provide antiwear protection so that the polar ends of the decomposition products can interact with the metal surface to provide boundary lubrication). The primary zincs start to decompose around 184-186 degrees F while secondary zincs (made with branch alkyl groups) decompose at higher temperatures depending upon the degree of branching and chain length, thus providing antiwear protection across a broad temperature range. This is why you do not want to heat motor oil (to drive off water) after you have mixed in the additive package as the ZDDP will start to decompose at temperatures high enough to drive off water.

The yellow metal issue you are referring to is associated with the sulfurized olefin used in gear oil additive packages. This chemistry is separate and distinct from ZDDP. The issue with the sulfurized olefin is dependent on the supplier. Specifically, the Lubrizol additive starts coming apart at temperatures around 250F and becomes aggressive to yellow metals. Other suppliers, such as Afton, have chemistry that is more stable and this phenomena is not associated with their additives.

There was one issue, historically, about ZDDP that was raised by Dennison, when an old guy by the name of Ellis Borne was their head guru. In piston hydraulic pumps, there was some feeling at Denison that ZDDP somehow interfered with the frictional property of the hydraulic oil, giving rise to bronze transfer from the piston shoes to the swash plate. It was never proved conclusively that this was the case, and much time and effort was spent on it. But Dennison preferred R&O oils for their piston pumps. However, over time, the industry figured out how to make ZDDPs that were excellent performers with both steel on steel pumps and bronze on steel pumps so it really is not an issue in today's world.

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Just a note,...Mike rightfully pointed out that EPA doesn't directly regulate oil chemistry formulations, but I'd mention that they do regulate emissions and the lifespan of certain components on these newer cars. That imposes some limitations on what goes into motor oils to protect catalytic converters these days so I'd call it "indirect regulation",..

My hats off to Mr. Zimmerman who has done a nice job in researching whats going on with some of these oils. Thats precisely the kind of thing that makes Rennlist so valuable.