non-matching numbers on early 911 -- help, please
05-03-2003, 03:57 PM
#1
Wordsmith
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non-matching numbers on early 911 -- help, please
Can someone tell what numbers _should_ go with this VIN?
... and the original spec of the car too, if that's available ...
(older, scruffy car, sordid history, thinking of doing "the project" ... call me crazy ...)
All help appreciated and rewarded in the universal currency of the Porsche enthusiast.
9112301451 VIN
... and the original spec of the car too, if that's available ...
(older, scruffy car, sordid history, thinking of doing "the project" ... call me crazy ...)
All help appreciated and rewarded in the universal currency of the Porsche enthusiast.
9112301451 VIN
05-04-2003, 01:03 AM
#2
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1972 911S coupe, the 1,451st built out of 1,750 911Ss built in 1972. Engine number between 6320001-6322586, probably closer to the last number. 2.4L engine, type 911/53 - 190 HP at 6,500 RPM, 158 ft-lbs torque at 4,000 RPM, 8.5:1 CR, MFI.
05-04-2003, 03:36 PM
#5
1972 was the first year for the 915 transmission...If you buy, join the Early 911S Registry, you'll find lot of help there. <a href="http://www.early911sregistry.org" target="_blank">www.early911sregistry.org</a>
05-06-2003, 02:44 AM
#7
Wordsmith
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indeed
but interesting
the present owner seems "realistic" about the car and fairly candid about its present condition -- the car has spent at least the last decade or two on the track and the present owner has done eight years of time trails until putting a rod through the original block
the replacement CIS motor is of no interest, but good to flog off for parts to defray the cost of building a very serious 2.7 motor and I've toyed with the idea of a 2.8 or 3.0 RSR motor just to distance this car from the "yet another RS clone" syndrome
and I think the '72 is just a great body
eBay is a funny place for early 911's now -- it's gone from "nice older car for sale, owned it for years, needs work" to "I bought this car off a local paper two months ago and now I'm going to hold out for an unrealistic price"
I'm getting rather tired of car dealers that, well, aren't dealing as many cars as they'd like, so they go around buying all the "for sale by owner" cars and then "flipping" them for premium market prices through eBay
hell, eBay deserves it own thread here ... caveat emptor
ps. For Pete's sake -- why do people bid _above_ retail for consumer electronics on eBay?!
but interesting
the present owner seems "realistic" about the car and fairly candid about its present condition -- the car has spent at least the last decade or two on the track and the present owner has done eight years of time trails until putting a rod through the original block
the replacement CIS motor is of no interest, but good to flog off for parts to defray the cost of building a very serious 2.7 motor and I've toyed with the idea of a 2.8 or 3.0 RSR motor just to distance this car from the "yet another RS clone" syndrome
and I think the '72 is just a great body
eBay is a funny place for early 911's now -- it's gone from "nice older car for sale, owned it for years, needs work" to "I bought this car off a local paper two months ago and now I'm going to hold out for an unrealistic price"
I'm getting rather tired of car dealers that, well, aren't dealing as many cars as they'd like, so they go around buying all the "for sale by owner" cars and then "flipping" them for premium market prices through eBay
hell, eBay deserves it own thread here ... caveat emptor
ps. For Pete's sake -- why do people bid _above_ retail for consumer electronics on eBay?!
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05-06-2003, 08:22 AM
#8
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I've wondered that too...I've seen DVDs on eBay go for sometimes twice what you could get them on amazon.com or similar outlet. Duh!
I was looking at the same car...and still am...except that I haven't gotten a response from the owner to my inquiries. I have a '72 T that I'd love to make into an RS replica at some time. But everyone tells me it's cheaper to buy one than to build your own. This one, even with the 2.4 CIS motor, would be way ahead of my T. I could probably enjoy it for some time until I could get a better motor. The fact that the chassis is an "S" helps a little, too.
But until I get any more info, I'm not going anywhere on this. If you get it, let us know.
Cheers...
I was looking at the same car...and still am...except that I haven't gotten a response from the owner to my inquiries. I have a '72 T that I'd love to make into an RS replica at some time. But everyone tells me it's cheaper to buy one than to build your own. This one, even with the 2.4 CIS motor, would be way ahead of my T. I could probably enjoy it for some time until I could get a better motor. The fact that the chassis is an "S" helps a little, too.
But until I get any more info, I'm not going anywhere on this. If you get it, let us know.
Cheers...
05-06-2003, 08:58 PM
#10
Wordsmith
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Right -- non-matching numbers kills the investment value of the car, taking it from a "molested" 20 something car that could be fairly easily renovated to a mid teens just for driving and enjoy car that will likely never follow the appreciation of the "correct" cars.
This car has been tracked for eight years by the present owner who bought it as a turn-key racer toy, blew the original 2.4MFI (holed the block...) then had a CIS motor dropped in. It took the mechanic (and I use the word in the loosest possible sense) a _year_ to get the engine done and in the car. Now, another year later, the guy is tired of the car and getting out of it.
He sounds quick candid and sincere.
I'm driving up to see it before the auction closes in case I want to drop a bid in the mix.
Also, don't be fooled by the mystique of the early "S" stuff -- there's just the collector appeal. It's not as if there's anything that an S has at a mechanical level that can't be recreated in a T. But, for dollars and sense, you'll always be working form a T market price.
And if you "hack" into an S and do anything that can't be reversed, the collector value plummets, so for all intents and purposes, tinkering with a T makes far more sense. That's probably why you can find early T cars, even Targas, given the RS make-over.
It's still incredibly difficult and painful to buy a nice S and every time I find one, it's either priced for a gouge or it's got so many problems that by the time I set it up, I'll have put too much time and money into it -- of course, you can substitute the early 911 for numerous other collectibles and find much the same scenario.
What's really annoying me is the scavenger dealers, really horse traders, that find old nags, give them a quick wash and some new shoes, then proclaim them to be of the finest condition. These jokers are pillaging what could be a decent "for sale by owner" market. In this case, owner and buyer alike lose out -- the owner could be selling at retail to another person and the buyer could be getting a fair market value deal with the market being so heavily inflated by the spread from the traders. And the pool of early 911's is so small, with so many traders trying to leverage a deal off every rusty old tub, that there's nothing left on the shelf for us folk of humble means. grumble, grumble ...
This car has been tracked for eight years by the present owner who bought it as a turn-key racer toy, blew the original 2.4MFI (holed the block...) then had a CIS motor dropped in. It took the mechanic (and I use the word in the loosest possible sense) a _year_ to get the engine done and in the car. Now, another year later, the guy is tired of the car and getting out of it.
He sounds quick candid and sincere.
I'm driving up to see it before the auction closes in case I want to drop a bid in the mix.
Also, don't be fooled by the mystique of the early "S" stuff -- there's just the collector appeal. It's not as if there's anything that an S has at a mechanical level that can't be recreated in a T. But, for dollars and sense, you'll always be working form a T market price.
And if you "hack" into an S and do anything that can't be reversed, the collector value plummets, so for all intents and purposes, tinkering with a T makes far more sense. That's probably why you can find early T cars, even Targas, given the RS make-over.
It's still incredibly difficult and painful to buy a nice S and every time I find one, it's either priced for a gouge or it's got so many problems that by the time I set it up, I'll have put too much time and money into it -- of course, you can substitute the early 911 for numerous other collectibles and find much the same scenario.
What's really annoying me is the scavenger dealers, really horse traders, that find old nags, give them a quick wash and some new shoes, then proclaim them to be of the finest condition. These jokers are pillaging what could be a decent "for sale by owner" market. In this case, owner and buyer alike lose out -- the owner could be selling at retail to another person and the buyer could be getting a fair market value deal with the market being so heavily inflated by the spread from the traders. And the pool of early 911's is so small, with so many traders trying to leverage a deal off every rusty old tub, that there's nothing left on the shelf for us folk of humble means. grumble, grumble ...
05-06-2003, 10:03 PM
#11
Grumble, grumble...No difference between an S and a T that can't be easily done? Only numbers, you think? Okay...you have your opinion, I have mine...but you're right in a way. I'd LOVE to have an early 911 hot rod, but I'm not going to chop my "S" in order to have one. And I have only the space and money for one "toy" car. Ain't life a female dawg? 
05-06-2003, 11:47 PM
#12
Wordsmith
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pwd72s: please identify any difference between the S and the T that cannot be done aftermarket?
With that question on the table, I still do love the S and I'm trying to find the right one for me. But in all likelihood, the number of wealthy buyers out there will keep me looking at T cars or the myriad RS clones on T VINs.
Cheers,
ps. Wanna sell your '72 S ?
With that question on the table, I still do love the S and I'm trying to find the right one for me. But in all likelihood, the number of wealthy buyers out there will keep me looking at T cars or the myriad RS clones on T VINs.
Cheers,
ps. Wanna sell your '72 S ?
05-07-2003, 12:34 AM
#13
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Carrera GT:
[QB]pwd72s: please identify any difference between the S and the T that cannot be done aftermarket?
With that question on the table, I still do love the S and I'm trying to find the right one for me. But in all likelihood, the number of wealthy buyers out there will keep me looking at T cars or the myriad RS clones on T VINs.
ANYTHING can be done aftermarket...except the numbers. That's illegal...(not that even that hasn't been done.) BUT..buy an early T...let's say a '72, one even with MFI. To convert the engine to S specs? $$$$$ New pistons & cylinders, new cams, bigger dia. MFI stacks, MFI pump rebuild and calibration. different cams, different heads with bigger valves, and the list probably goes on. Now, let's go to suspension & brakes, the addition of a front mounted oil cooler, (standard on the S, optional on a T, and few T's were ordered with one) finding a steel "S" spoiler bumper..need I go on? Bottom line..yes, a "real" S sells for more than a T in the same condition. It's more than that the "S" models were made in fewer numbers...it would cost quite a bit to "upgrade" a T to S equipment. The price in today's market reflects this. Sorry, my '72S is not for sale...
[QB]pwd72s: please identify any difference between the S and the T that cannot be done aftermarket?
With that question on the table, I still do love the S and I'm trying to find the right one for me. But in all likelihood, the number of wealthy buyers out there will keep me looking at T cars or the myriad RS clones on T VINs.
ANYTHING can be done aftermarket...except the numbers. That's illegal...(not that even that hasn't been done.) BUT..buy an early T...let's say a '72, one even with MFI. To convert the engine to S specs? $$$$$ New pistons & cylinders, new cams, bigger dia. MFI stacks, MFI pump rebuild and calibration. different cams, different heads with bigger valves, and the list probably goes on. Now, let's go to suspension & brakes, the addition of a front mounted oil cooler, (standard on the S, optional on a T, and few T's were ordered with one) finding a steel "S" spoiler bumper..need I go on? Bottom line..yes, a "real" S sells for more than a T in the same condition. It's more than that the "S" models were made in fewer numbers...it would cost quite a bit to "upgrade" a T to S equipment. The price in today's market reflects this. Sorry, my '72S is not for sale...
05-07-2003, 01:57 AM
#14
Wordsmith
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pwd72s
What does pwd stand for?
I appreciate your conceding that anything, money willing, can be done after-market to some level of purpose. And, I apologise for aggravating any "S" sensibilities -- I did try to indicate I?m amongst those smitten by the thing rather than the sum of the pieces -- but I still don't know of anything that, mechanically, beyond factory stamped serial numbers, can't be done after-market. I'm not suggesting anything about authenticity, just functionality and specification.
This is more a question of learning than questioning, if you see what I mean by drawing the distinction.
Cheers,
What does pwd stand for?
I appreciate your conceding that anything, money willing, can be done after-market to some level of purpose. And, I apologise for aggravating any "S" sensibilities -- I did try to indicate I?m amongst those smitten by the thing rather than the sum of the pieces -- but I still don't know of anything that, mechanically, beyond factory stamped serial numbers, can't be done after-market. I'm not suggesting anything about authenticity, just functionality and specification.
This is more a question of learning than questioning, if you see what I mean by drawing the distinction.
Cheers,
