912 - 692 4-Cam?

der Mond · 01-11-2009, 06:15 AM

I found and tweaked my ideal 911 and drove it hard for 30K miles before selling it, so I am no wannabe. In coming to terms with deciding what my ideal Porsche road car of all time would be, I am arriving at the conclusion that a 692 Carrera 4-Cam engine in a 912 may be the greatest daily driver/grand tour car ever. You just never hear of such things. The 912 in its early forms weighed not that much more than a 356 Carrera 2, and seems to be a superior car to contain on of Porsches greatest, most pure engines ever. Sorry to be lazy in terms of searching, but do you know of this swap?

ked · 01-12-2009, 03:42 AM

I'd be somewhat surprised if anyone's swapped a 4cam into a 912, for a variety of reasons, but some people do things just "because it's there". It isn't the cost-effective way to go, at least. Of the 4cams, my opinion is that the 587 (Carrera2) engine would be the one to use (or whose perf specs one might target) in the 912... but really, why not just get an early 911, or at least use a 911 motor?

If you want the performance of a 692 or 587 for the 912 chassis & must have a Porsche 4cyl, there are other paths that make sense. One is to use a FI, twin-plug 616-based motor such as John Wilhoit builds. These can produce around 160hp (if memory serves me), which is in the range of the 2.0l 4cams (though in ultimate race tune for the 904, those 587s made up to 190hp - & not really streetable). If one wants the really high hp & torque of a na 4 cyl motor AND minimize cost, then I'd look into hot VW Type 1 & Type 4 motors ala Jack Raby's.

It's a slippery (& expensive) slope... vintage racing classes support using a 2.5l 6cyl in a swb 901 chassis. Before you know it, you 're contemplating a 230hp RS style 2.7/3.0l in a '66 912.... then, maybe a turbo (that's where the factory ended up w/ the 901, eventually). So, just turbocharge a Type 1, drop it in the 912 & start upgrading the susp & brakes...

The 911 / 912 is the most developed sports car in history - great fodder for rolling one the way you wish!

der Mond · 01-12-2009, 06:41 AM

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, and a nice avatar too. You know, it's partly hemi obsession, there's just nothing quite like a hemi. I know that even Porsche gets more HP from a 4-valve pent-roof design, but they never made a 4-cylinder like that. It's ironic, the 1.5 L motor in my Honda Fit Sport is a more technologically awesome motor than anything we've been talking about, but it's just not the same. I used to believe that the sound of my 3.2 was so rich and wonderful, as well as early 911's I've had the pleasure of listening to, just because of the hemi design. Nothing in a substitute Porsche 4-cylinder motor could satisfy me, even if it had twice the horsepower. Have you ever listened to a 587 or 692? I bet they sound awe-fully lovely. And they are beautiful in their relative simplicity, and what a history and tradition? A motor that actually ran the Carrera! The 587 is just too finicky to be a daily driver, the crank is too easy to screw up and at what a cost! The other thing is that I have a friend who has a 912 in slate gray, the same color as Steve McQueen's 911 in LeMans, and it is just so pretty I can barely stand it. That sweet car with the look and sound and feel of a 692 in back, well, it just makes me daydream. Which is all it probably will ever do, but at any rate I appreciate the feedback. If you are Porsche obsessed, as you know, a certain portion of that is pure matters of the heart and soul...

ked · 01-12-2009, 03:28 PM

without dragging out the references (particularly Ludvigsen's "EWE", Maltby's "356 & RS Spyders" & Scrogham's "356 Carrera"), I seem to recall that the 587 was the final evolution of Fuhrmann's design, even though it was begun years earlier (thus the project designation #). It had plain bearings & easier valve adjustment procedure... not to mention more hp as a 2 liter. I think the 692 & earlier motors cost more to rebuild, but am not certain & that is not neccessarily confirmation of the "better" engine from the owner-user's pov (operational flexability, maintainance & longevity being critical factors as well).
Discussions w/ a Carrera 2 owner in Germany led me to believe that engine (the 587) was preferred.

A friend has a Willhoit twin plug 616 motor (Webers) in his A Coupe & it offers fantastic driving experience. Expensive, yes, but far less so than a 4cam, quite usable & basically simple to care for. As to engine mechanical & exhaust note I am with ya - that's why going to the Rennsport Reunions has been such a blast (literally!) - along w/ all the other sound reasons.

The next yr or 2 may be the "last chance" to get a "great deal" on 356s & swb 901s... A solid chassis w/ all the parts but "some mechanical issues" (thus driving down the price further) is a good point of entry.
cheers!

der Mond · 01-13-2009, 02:20 PM

From recent stuff I've read the 692 is the later, less expensive engine, but at any rate that is one gorgeous engine compartment. I hope to see and hear one in-person one of these days. Thanks!

ked · 01-13-2009, 02:58 PM

here's a Carrera 2 ad (w/ photo of the 587 motor) that notes the upgrade... (pretty Cab!)
http://www.autosportdesigns.com/Sale...s.aspx?ID=1601
here's an affordable example of the 1600cc 4cam...
http://www.scaleautoworks.com/356fourcam.html
... all you need is the soundtrack.
enjoy!

der Mond · 01-14-2009, 05:27 PM

Well, I'm stunned by that gray 356B Cab. An absolutely perfect example. and I see the 587 "plain bearing" reference. Thanks! I had seen the scale model site, what beautiful handiwork!

butzip · 01-14-2009, 07:19 PM

I remember seeing pictures of a '901' with a 4-cam engine being driven by a Porsche family member or Porsche ranking official back in the day as a 'special' daily driver. It may well be in 'Excellence Was Expected'. I will look tonight when I get home. I know the car existed just not sure where I saw it.

How about one in a bug!!

der Mond · 01-15-2009, 02:25 PM

By the way, the Carrera 2 in the link from ked above is $400K. Where in the world did that 4-cam engine above come from? It looks like it could make use of Carrera chain tensioners...in a Bug? That is so cool! Even better, in a Karmann Ghia!

butzip · 01-15-2009, 04:35 PM

Der,

Go to www.emorymotorsports.com and checkout the outlaws!! You will die!

As quoted from his 64' outlaw page regarding the below 4 cyl 911 engine.....

"Engine

The engine is unique, it was designed and built by Advanced Performance Engineering, lead by Dean Polopolus. It is a 911-4, an innovative and powerful 4-cylinder 911 type engine, case, and components. A lightweight high performance engine, the 911-4 is based on proven components of the standard 911 engine.

The engine is 2250 cubic centimeters, with a bore and stroke of 97mm x 74mm. The pistons are Venolia, the rods are Carillo and the cams have 906 profiles. The 911-4 runs 48 IDA Webers on top of 3.o ltr twin plug heads. The engine has a unique sound since it does not fire at 180-degree intervals, rather at 120, 240, and 120. The distributor is a late Carrera 2 unit that has been modified to run a German Bosch pulse generator. A pair of Bosch CD boxes fire the motors at just under 11 to 1 compression. The 911-4 runs 24 degrees total distributor advance and dynos out at 220 plus reliable horsepower."

Enjoy!

butzip · 02-12-2009, 01:08 AM

reference the latest Excellence mag 'Creation 901 part 2' pg 65

"Ferry said that he wanted his new model to have performance equal to that of the 356 carrera 2. During testing, the type 695 (early 901/911 prototype) was often powered by a 356 carrera 2 engine, a type 587/1 four in touring tune."

hoffman912 · 02-16-2009, 05:32 PM

ive always thought a 4 cam ina 12 woudl be the bees knees and the ultimate outlaw. but it is cost prohibitive. much cheeper to go with a polo 4 cyl 911, or a benton built twin plug monster.

and here are the numbers.. http://912bbs.org/index.php?a=topic&t=28286&hl=dyno

Niklas Larsson · 09-19-2009, 03:46 PM

Here is one picture of a 912 Carrera Hotrod

. Sorry that my blog is in Swedish. Click on this link to find my blog

der Mond · 09-21-2009, 02:40 AM

Niklas, that is exactly what I was hoping to hear about. One of the most beautiful shapes of all time wrapped around one of the greatest engines of all time. I cannot imagine a more satisfying car to drive, one with the "original hemi" in its purest form, 4 cylinders, air-cooled, and then to park and get out and look over the finest rendition of Porsche street body style. If you would be willing to share more photos of this most wonderful car, hopefully here or in any case in a private message or email [dermond911@yahoo.com] I would be grateful beyond words.

Niklas Larsson · 09-21-2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by der Mond

Niklas, that is exactly what I was hoping to hear about. One of the most beautiful shapes of all time wrapped around one of the greatest engines of all time. I cannot imagine a more satisfying car to drive, one with the "original hemi" in its purest form, 4 cylinders, air-cooled, and then to park and get out and look over the finest rendition of Porsche street body style. If you would be willing to share more photos of this most wonderful car, hopefully here or in any case in a private message or email [dermond911@yahoo.com] I would be grateful beyond words.

Der Mond. I don´t have any information about that car. I found the picture on the Internet for two years ago. It´s a cool picture on a very cool car. But even if we all dream about a car like that I think you must have muchos pesetas to make the dream come true. A more economic version is to put in a tuned VW-engine

01-11-2009, 06:15 AM	#1
der Mond Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska Posts: 455	912 - 692 4-Cam? I found and tweaked my ideal 911 and drove it hard for 30K miles before selling it, so I am no wannabe. In coming to terms with deciding what my ideal Porsche road car of all time would be, I am arriving at the conclusion that a 692 Carrera 4-Cam engine in a 912 may be the greatest daily driver/grand tour car ever. You just never hear of such things. The 912 in its early forms weighed not that much more than a 356 Carrera 2, and seems to be a superior car to contain on of Porsches greatest, most pure engines ever. Sorry to be lazy in terms of searching, but do you know of this swap? __________________ Peace & thanks der Mond '87 Carrera Coupe Venetian Blue Metallic Sold 30 September 2007 Many Thanks!

01-12-2009, 06:41 AM	#3
der Mond Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska Posts: 455	Thanks for the thoughtful reply, and a nice avatar too. You know, it's partly hemi obsession, there's just nothing quite like a hemi. I know that even Porsche gets more HP from a 4-valve pent-roof design, but they never made a 4-cylinder like that. It's ironic, the 1.5 L motor in my Honda Fit Sport is a more technologically awesome motor than anything we've been talking about, but it's just not the same. I used to believe that the sound of my 3.2 was so rich and wonderful, as well as early 911's I've had the pleasure of listening to, just because of the hemi design. Nothing in a substitute Porsche 4-cylinder motor could satisfy me, even if it had twice the horsepower. Have you ever listened to a 587 or 692? I bet they sound awe-fully lovely. And they are beautiful in their relative simplicity, and what a history and tradition? A motor that actually ran the Carrera! The 587 is just too finicky to be a daily driver, the crank is too easy to screw up and at what a cost! The other thing is that I have a friend who has a 912 in slate gray, the same color as Steve McQueen's 911 in LeMans, and it is just so pretty I can barely stand it. That sweet car with the look and sound and feel of a 692 in back, well, it just makes me daydream. Which is all it probably will ever do, but at any rate I appreciate the feedback. If you are Porsche obsessed, as you know, a certain portion of that is pure matters of the heart and soul... __________________ Peace & thanks der Mond '87 Carrera Coupe Venetian Blue Metallic Sold 30 September 2007 Many Thanks!

01-13-2009, 02:20 PM	#5
der Mond Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska Posts: 455	From recent stuff I've read the 692 is the later, less expensive engine, but at any rate that is one gorgeous engine compartment. I hope to see and hear one in-person one of these days. Thanks! __________________ Peace & thanks der Mond '87 Carrera Coupe Venetian Blue Metallic Sold 30 September 2007 Many Thanks!

01-14-2009, 05:27 PM	#7
der Mond Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska Posts: 455	Well, I'm stunned by that gray 356B Cab. An absolutely perfect example. and I see the 587 "plain bearing" reference. Thanks! I had seen the scale model site, what beautiful handiwork! __________________ Peace & thanks der Mond '87 Carrera Coupe Venetian Blue Metallic Sold 30 September 2007 Many Thanks!

01-15-2009, 02:25 PM	#9
der Mond Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska Posts: 455	By the way, the Carrera 2 in the link from ked above is $400K. Where in the world did that 4-cam engine above come from? It looks like it could make use of Carrera chain tensioners...in a Bug? That is so cool! Even better, in a Karmann Ghia! __________________ Peace & thanks der Mond '87 Carrera Coupe Venetian Blue Metallic Sold 30 September 2007 Many Thanks!

01-12-2009, 03:42 AM	#2
ked Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Hsv AL Posts: 3,195	I'd be somewhat surprised if anyone's swapped a 4cam into a 912, for a variety of reasons, but some people do things just "because it's there". It isn't the cost-effective way to go, at least. Of the 4cams, my opinion is that the 587 (Carrera2) engine would be the one to use (or whose perf specs one might target) in the 912... but really, why not just get an early 911, or at least use a 911 motor? If you want the performance of a 692 or 587 for the 912 chassis & must have a Porsche 4cyl, there are other paths that make sense. One is to use a FI, twin-plug 616-based motor such as John Wilhoit builds. These can produce around 160hp (if memory serves me), which is in the range of the 2.0l 4cams (though in ultimate race tune for the 904, those 587s made up to 190hp - & not really streetable). If one wants the really high hp & torque of a na 4 cyl motor AND minimize cost, then I'd look into hot VW Type 1 & Type 4 motors ala Jack Raby's. It's a slippery (& expensive) slope... vintage racing classes support using a 2.5l 6cyl in a swb 901 chassis. Before you know it, you 're contemplating a 230hp RS style 2.7/3.0l in a '66 912.... then, maybe a turbo (that's where the factory ended up w/ the 901, eventually). So, just turbocharge a Type 1, drop it in the 912 & start upgrading the susp & brakes... The 911 / 912 is the most developed sports car in history - great fodder for rolling one the way you wish!

01-13-2009, 02:58 PM	#6
ked Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Hsv AL Posts: 3,195	here's a Carrera 2 ad (w/ photo of the 587 motor) that notes the upgrade... (pretty Cab!) http://www.autosportdesigns.com/Sale...s.aspx?ID=1601 here's an affordable example of the 1600cc 4cam... http://www.scaleautoworks.com/356fourcam.html ... all you need is the soundtrack. enjoy!

01-15-2009, 04:35 PM	#10
butzip Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Suffield, CT Posts: 999	Der, Go to www.emorymotorsports.com and checkout the outlaws!! You will die! As quoted from his 64' outlaw page regarding the below 4 cyl 911 engine..... "Engine The engine is unique, it was designed and built by Advanced Performance Engineering, lead by Dean Polopolus. It is a 911-4, an innovative and powerful 4-cylinder 911 type engine, case, and components. A lightweight high performance engine, the 911-4 is based on proven components of the standard 911 engine. The engine is 2250 cubic centimeters, with a bore and stroke of 97mm x 74mm. The pistons are Venolia, the rods are Carillo and the cams have 906 profiles. The 911-4 runs 48 IDA Webers on top of 3.o ltr twin plug heads. The engine has a unique sound since it does not fire at 180-degree intervals, rather at 120, 240, and 120. The distributor is a late Carrera 2 unit that has been modified to run a German Bosch pulse generator. A pair of Bosch CD boxes fire the motors at just under 11 to 1 compression. The 911-4 runs 24 degrees total distributor advance and dynos out at 220 plus reliable horsepower." Enjoy!

02-12-2009, 01:08 AM	#11
butzip Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Suffield, CT Posts: 999	reference the latest Excellence mag 'Creation 901 part 2' pg 65 "Ferry said that he wanted his new model to have performance equal to that of the 356 carrera 2. During testing, the type 695 (early 901/911 prototype) was often powered by a 356 carrera 2 engine, a type 587/1 four in touring tune."

02-16-2009, 05:32 PM	#12
hoffman912 The Hoffinator Rennlist Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 7,613	ive always thought a 4 cam ina 12 woudl be the bees knees and the ultimate outlaw. but it is cost prohibitive. much cheeper to go with a polo 4 cyl 911, or a benton built twin plug monster. and here are the numbers.. http://912bbs.org/index.php?a=topic&t=28286&hl=dyno __________________ Harry Hoffman 1968 912 #3656, burgandy red -'Five Grand Fritz' 912 registry charter member #912R0195-C, Rennlist Member#: 030920-4266 Official Nine Dozen, and Leader of Youthful Indiscretion for "HWFM" Racing Murphy is my Co-pilot.. literally pics from 2003 Cross Country Trip pics from my 2007 Cross Country Trip You don’t need a flat 6 to get your kicks

09-19-2009, 03:46 PM	#13
Niklas Larsson New User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Sweden Posts: 2	Here is one picture of a 912 Carrera Hotrod . Sorry that my blog is in Swedish. Click on this link to find my blog

09-21-2009, 02:40 AM	#14
der Mond Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska Posts: 455	Thank You! Niklas, that is exactly what I was hoping to hear about. One of the most beautiful shapes of all time wrapped around one of the greatest engines of all time. I cannot imagine a more satisfying car to drive, one with the "original hemi" in its purest form, 4 cylinders, air-cooled, and then to park and get out and look over the finest rendition of Porsche street body style. If you would be willing to share more photos of this most wonderful car, hopefully here or in any case in a private message or email [dermond911@yahoo.com] I would be grateful beyond words. __________________ Peace & thanks der Mond '87 Carrera Coupe Venetian Blue Metallic Sold 30 September 2007 Many Thanks!