Who are the future owners of 944s and 968s?
10-15-2017, 10:51 PM
#17
Nordschleife Master
10-15-2017, 11:05 PM
#18
I'd like to chime in here with a couple observations: Background. I'm 48 and was a junior in high school when the 86 951 hit the US market. I fell in love, and finally purchased one 4 years ago.
I'm keeping this one nice (A/C, stereo, and comfy seats), but would love another for track duty, eventually.
#1 Not everything new is bad. I had a chance to drive my wife's loaner from Acura this morning, and the lane departure feature was pretty cool. And the bloody thing has a 9 speed transmission. 1st is so short, I accidentally (I swear) spun the tires (multiple times) moving off from a standing start. Not bad for a 3 row SUV. I could see that tech making the morning commute a lot easier. I have no issues with a young person (or any person) chosing that level of convinience over a 30 year old manual with bad climate control, or chosing to not own a car at all.
I'd still keep the 944 for the weekends, but the irony of me rebuilding the throttle body as the loaner is parked next to the 944 is not lost on me.
#2 it is a bit difficult to take anyone seriously that generalized an entire generation. "Young people today"... you know how you sound, right? What is next, complaints about how those darn kids wont get off your lawn?
Turn Turn Turn. There was a period when cars were displacing the horse. Fuel injection supplanted carbs, and electricity may very well prove to replace internal combustion, eventually. Blacksmiths and mechanics that knew how to jet the carbs have become less needed. Maybe anyone that is a wizzard at engine management may be in the same boat in another 20 years.
Change is the only constant. Yes, there may be a very small market for our cars in the not too distant future... but if there is still a market for 32 Fords and 70s muscle , no matter how small, then I have hope that there will be a similar reduced market for our cars.
Focus group of 1... im still looking for an 80s rally (ish) car. Ur Quattro is top of list, but I'd take a Celica all track, or a Subaru/Mitsu. Reality is with kids in college and limited garage space, that may be post retirement activity. And God knows, I will need that mechanic then.
Malcolm
I'm keeping this one nice (A/C, stereo, and comfy seats), but would love another for track duty, eventually.
#1 Not everything new is bad. I had a chance to drive my wife's loaner from Acura this morning, and the lane departure feature was pretty cool. And the bloody thing has a 9 speed transmission. 1st is so short, I accidentally (I swear) spun the tires (multiple times) moving off from a standing start. Not bad for a 3 row SUV. I could see that tech making the morning commute a lot easier. I have no issues with a young person (or any person) chosing that level of convinience over a 30 year old manual with bad climate control, or chosing to not own a car at all.
I'd still keep the 944 for the weekends, but the irony of me rebuilding the throttle body as the loaner is parked next to the 944 is not lost on me.
#2 it is a bit difficult to take anyone seriously that generalized an entire generation. "Young people today"... you know how you sound, right? What is next, complaints about how those darn kids wont get off your lawn?
Turn Turn Turn. There was a period when cars were displacing the horse. Fuel injection supplanted carbs, and electricity may very well prove to replace internal combustion, eventually. Blacksmiths and mechanics that knew how to jet the carbs have become less needed. Maybe anyone that is a wizzard at engine management may be in the same boat in another 20 years.
Change is the only constant. Yes, there may be a very small market for our cars in the not too distant future... but if there is still a market for 32 Fords and 70s muscle , no matter how small, then I have hope that there will be a similar reduced market for our cars.
Focus group of 1... im still looking for an 80s rally (ish) car. Ur Quattro is top of list, but I'd take a Celica all track, or a Subaru/Mitsu. Reality is with kids in college and limited garage space, that may be post retirement activity. And God knows, I will need that mechanic then.
Malcolm
10-16-2017, 01:27 AM
#19
I'm not too far North of you, if you're in Ballard. Coming in the next few weeks, if you happen to see a dark blue 924S or a white 968 Coupe with color-matched wheel, that'll likely be me. You're welcome to chase me down.
I agree with your sentiments on the Ballard area, BTW.
10-16-2017, 01:48 AM
#20
i had an '87 944S in 1990. and was in an ancient '94 968 in 2008.
so many 944 enthusiasts over the years never followed the natural progression from 15-20 year old 944s and S2's to 15-20 year old 968s. as in really didn't (follow it).
the 968s cost only a few thousand dollars more in such cases, but this would have been just following the price points of the 944s of a few years previous. the 968s though somewhat heavier, overall, are better cars imo, gave back a lot in terms of the better engine, and transmission, way more top end, real actual headliners (those headliners), better brakes, and far-superior engine management.
i found that to be, strange.
so many 944 enthusiasts over the years never followed the natural progression from 15-20 year old 944s and S2's to 15-20 year old 968s. as in really didn't (follow it).
the 968s cost only a few thousand dollars more in such cases, but this would have been just following the price points of the 944s of a few years previous. the 968s though somewhat heavier, overall, are better cars imo, gave back a lot in terms of the better engine, and transmission, way more top end, real actual headliners (those headliners), better brakes, and far-superior engine management.
i found that to be, strange.
PS 38 here, still rockin out with my S3, recently completely rebuilt the power steering system and am continuing to improve the car. its at 175k now and its still awesome! rear suspension and TT rebuild are next. Ill have it for a while yet.
10-16-2017, 10:04 AM
#21
24 year old here. All of my friends work on cars. It's probably not the same "scene" that you older (respectfully) guys were into (drifting, autocross, etc.), but they can all wrench. I personally have fixed just about everything on my car; I've spent so much time working on/driving it, it might as well be part of my personality at this point. Just rebuilt a 16V from the ground up and I'll be pulling the 8V soon, hopefully this keeps her running for the next 20+ years.
10-16-2017, 12:45 PM
#22
Racer
Thread Starter
Appreciate the replies and thoughts
I appreciate the thoughts and ideas people have made ... I've been thinking about this for awhile and its good to get different opinions. A few thoughts I've had as well ... not tying to offend anyone, just my own observations:
1. They did make a lot of these cars, but at the same time, a lot of them have either been damaged beyond repair, not maintained properly and require extensive (and expensive) repairs, or otherwise are no longer viable to drive
2. Seems like the cars still on the road now are falling into three broad categories; 1) At the low end, really worn out, and needing a lot in repairs, 2) In pristine, original or restored condition with prices so high I wonder if anyone real is buying them, or 3) track prepared and or highly modified as to appeal to a very small segment
3. Shops that work on these cars seem to be getting harder to find and the expertise that once existed to work on these cars seems to be dwindling in favor of newer models ... this shift is understandable, from a business model point of view, as there are a lot less 944's and 968's owners seeking repairs and willing to pay professionals to do these repairs ... what will this be like in 5 to 10 years? Seems only worse than now
4. Although many cottage industries are around (like Plyhammers Parts, Larts, etc...) now that sell used parts, many more have gone out of business or have scaled down their support for these cars ... what will this landscape be like in 5 to 10 years?
5. Not singling out any generational feelings or stereotypes, it is true that in the US at least, the consumer base that are interested in these cars, especially with the move away from manual transmissions, desire for upgraded equipment, and have knowledge or desire to work on cars is getting much smaller
6. The 944's and 968's as a whole, are not seen as "desirable" collectors cars like 356's, 911's (all generations), etc... which seems to me to cap their potential market values ... if this is true, then there won't be the broad based interest to get, repair or restore, and sustain these cars, making the potential market very small and geared to those who really know these cars ... as people age, I wonder if that small market isn't only going to get a lot smaller in 5 to 10 years.
7. The 944 and 968 series cars are great, but require a degree of familiarity and expertise to keep up ... who will do this?
I've been collecting, restoring and working on cars for a long time. I own my own shop and 944's and 968's are still welcomed. I wanted to get into Porsche's when I was 16, but didn't think I could afford them, so got my start in 240Z's (still have one). They used to be just like 944's ... millions of them and one on every street corner. They were cheap in the 1980's and that's why I got into them ... learned a lot too (fortunately, years later I was more successful and able to get into Porsche's and I've owned many of them). Now, however, you never see 240Z's on the road. Yet, the market for these seems to be very small, but if you can spend the time, energy and effort, you might find an actual buyer that would pay the right $$ to buy them. It's not as easy as it first appears.
Over the years, I've watched Porsche's of all kinds drop in value, stagnate for some time at prices that would make you scream today, and then watched sudden resurgences (356's, early 911's, later 911's, specialty cars), sometimes to crazy levels, almost like a bandwagon effect in marketing. I've attributed this to many people wanting something from their youth they couldn't previously afford to looking for alternative and creative places to invest money as either a hedge against stock prices or for excess cash. This caused many nice early Porsche's to become un-affordable to most of us. It seems, for now that the bubble has burst somewhat as the exorbitant prices are starting to wane, which means all those people who paid so much now are underwater with these cars. What happens to them is still unknown but it'll be interesting to watch.
To be clear, I DID NOT start this discussion about 944's and 968's looking or wanting to make huge profits ... that just isn't what this is about. What it is about is wondering if the desire for these cars is now over for the vast majority of people. I'd wager 95% of the population in the US has never heard of a 944 and 99% have never heard about a 968, yet in the 1990's and early 2000's, many, many more did. If you own one currently, does that mean it'll be unlikely that you will be able to sell them in 5 to 10 years and if they will be worth anything.
I still have a 944 Turbo and a 968 that I really enjoy and (horrors), actually have driven ... a lot, (they are in great condition and properly maintained), but it seems I'm one of the very few these days that does. Some of the comments so far give me hope for these cars in the future. I guess it'll just be something to watch.
1. They did make a lot of these cars, but at the same time, a lot of them have either been damaged beyond repair, not maintained properly and require extensive (and expensive) repairs, or otherwise are no longer viable to drive
2. Seems like the cars still on the road now are falling into three broad categories; 1) At the low end, really worn out, and needing a lot in repairs, 2) In pristine, original or restored condition with prices so high I wonder if anyone real is buying them, or 3) track prepared and or highly modified as to appeal to a very small segment
3. Shops that work on these cars seem to be getting harder to find and the expertise that once existed to work on these cars seems to be dwindling in favor of newer models ... this shift is understandable, from a business model point of view, as there are a lot less 944's and 968's owners seeking repairs and willing to pay professionals to do these repairs ... what will this be like in 5 to 10 years? Seems only worse than now
4. Although many cottage industries are around (like Plyhammers Parts, Larts, etc...) now that sell used parts, many more have gone out of business or have scaled down their support for these cars ... what will this landscape be like in 5 to 10 years?
5. Not singling out any generational feelings or stereotypes, it is true that in the US at least, the consumer base that are interested in these cars, especially with the move away from manual transmissions, desire for upgraded equipment, and have knowledge or desire to work on cars is getting much smaller
6. The 944's and 968's as a whole, are not seen as "desirable" collectors cars like 356's, 911's (all generations), etc... which seems to me to cap their potential market values ... if this is true, then there won't be the broad based interest to get, repair or restore, and sustain these cars, making the potential market very small and geared to those who really know these cars ... as people age, I wonder if that small market isn't only going to get a lot smaller in 5 to 10 years.
7. The 944 and 968 series cars are great, but require a degree of familiarity and expertise to keep up ... who will do this?
I've been collecting, restoring and working on cars for a long time. I own my own shop and 944's and 968's are still welcomed. I wanted to get into Porsche's when I was 16, but didn't think I could afford them, so got my start in 240Z's (still have one). They used to be just like 944's ... millions of them and one on every street corner. They were cheap in the 1980's and that's why I got into them ... learned a lot too (fortunately, years later I was more successful and able to get into Porsche's and I've owned many of them). Now, however, you never see 240Z's on the road. Yet, the market for these seems to be very small, but if you can spend the time, energy and effort, you might find an actual buyer that would pay the right $$ to buy them. It's not as easy as it first appears.
Over the years, I've watched Porsche's of all kinds drop in value, stagnate for some time at prices that would make you scream today, and then watched sudden resurgences (356's, early 911's, later 911's, specialty cars), sometimes to crazy levels, almost like a bandwagon effect in marketing. I've attributed this to many people wanting something from their youth they couldn't previously afford to looking for alternative and creative places to invest money as either a hedge against stock prices or for excess cash. This caused many nice early Porsche's to become un-affordable to most of us. It seems, for now that the bubble has burst somewhat as the exorbitant prices are starting to wane, which means all those people who paid so much now are underwater with these cars. What happens to them is still unknown but it'll be interesting to watch.
To be clear, I DID NOT start this discussion about 944's and 968's looking or wanting to make huge profits ... that just isn't what this is about. What it is about is wondering if the desire for these cars is now over for the vast majority of people. I'd wager 95% of the population in the US has never heard of a 944 and 99% have never heard about a 968, yet in the 1990's and early 2000's, many, many more did. If you own one currently, does that mean it'll be unlikely that you will be able to sell them in 5 to 10 years and if they will be worth anything.
I still have a 944 Turbo and a 968 that I really enjoy and (horrors), actually have driven ... a lot, (they are in great condition and properly maintained), but it seems I'm one of the very few these days that does. Some of the comments so far give me hope for these cars in the future. I guess it'll just be something to watch.
10-16-2017, 02:52 PM
#23
Racer
Joe, good summary.
A couple points. The market will indeed be small, but for reasons you have stated the supply will be small as well. The determining issue on whether there is a market for "your" car is:
Is the market size decreasing faster than the supply or the other way around? Hard to predict the future I think the market will segment.
The market for DD's will probably decrease faster than the supply does.
The supply for collector samples might decrease faster than the market size.
A couple points. The market will indeed be small, but for reasons you have stated the supply will be small as well. The determining issue on whether there is a market for "your" car is:
Is the market size decreasing faster than the supply or the other way around? Hard to predict the future I think the market will segment.
The market for DD's will probably decrease faster than the supply does.
The supply for collector samples might decrease faster than the market size.
10-16-2017, 04:29 PM
#24
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I'm interested in opinions concerning the future market for 944s and 968s. I'm not asking about increasing values per se, but rather, who will be the ones looking to buy these cars in say 5 or 10 years? Will they be sought after, or will they become orphans?
There are a lot of great cars that Porsche has made since they stopped production on these cars. I wonder if we've now passed the time for broad appeal for these cars (I own a 944 Turbo and 968, so know they are great)
There are a lot of great cars that Porsche has made since they stopped production on these cars. I wonder if we've now passed the time for broad appeal for these cars (I own a 944 Turbo and 968, so know they are great)
Gen X also , in my opinion , is the last generation to be raised in a car culture .
I was never a gear head my youth but I always liked cars , everyone did. I got my license at 16 , bought my 1st car at 17 and loved the freedom of being able to go where ever i wanted at that age without having to borrow the family car .
It was easier back then , there were lots of cheap cars that could be fixed up , gas was 40 cents a liter , insurance was manageable and safety inspections were fairly easy to pass .
I don't think the millennials and future generations are or will be as connected to the car the way my generation and previous generations have been .
Kids today are not even bothering to get their license until they are off to work . I talk to parents regularly , and they are having to twist their kids arms to get a DL , kids don't seem interested .
in my province they have made it harder for kids or anyone new to get into cars .
DLs are now graduated , and it takes 3 years to get your full license , insurance costs for the young are outrageous . They have gotten crazy with the safety inspections , it started being less and less about safety and more about and environmental movement to get the beaters off the road as they were seen to be bad for the environment . Add in the cost and complexity to repair a modern car and even if kids were interested , they can't manage it .
Long term , 15 to 25 years out and beyond , I think that car collecting in general and maybe even cars them selves are on shaky ground .
10-16-2017, 04:56 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
On the contrary to what many have posted here, I think the 924/944/968 trans-axle cars WILL enjoy increased levels of desirability among enthusiasts during the next 5-10 years. All the UK Porsche magazines already claim the upswing is upon us, judging from the latest articles in multiple Porsche magazines I've read. They all make strong cases for these cars for being overbuilt, stylish, and sporty entry-level Porsches.
There is even hope for the young! Just this week, my 15 year old daughter's friend (also 15-16 years old) got an 1989 944 Turbo for his FIRST CAR! The car us super clean! The BOXSTER was getting old when this kid was born! The kid could have had anything but chose a 28 year old 944! Parked in the driveway were two other cool cars, an 80's Alfa Spider and an early 80's BMW Alpina. So, the kid has parents who influenced him.
My kids appreciate older cool cars, daughter more than son, actually.
At 49, I was absolutely NOT interested in a 356, 911, or 914 when I was in my teens or 20's...or even 30's, really. I remember not long ago (but maybe 15-20 years ago now) you could get early 911's cheap! 914's were a dime a dozen and nobody wanted them. Not anymore. Today, I would love to own one....and not just because of their current values. They are cool cars. It just took a while for me to realize it. I think the same goes for the 944 series.
While the overall wrenching skill level may be decreasing, the 944 was galvanized so the amount of restoration work needed to restore a rusty 356 isn't going to be there for the younger generation.
Lastly, I think the 944 will also appeal to the future "hipster" (whatever they may be called then).
There is even hope for the young! Just this week, my 15 year old daughter's friend (also 15-16 years old) got an 1989 944 Turbo for his FIRST CAR! The car us super clean! The BOXSTER was getting old when this kid was born! The kid could have had anything but chose a 28 year old 944! Parked in the driveway were two other cool cars, an 80's Alfa Spider and an early 80's BMW Alpina. So, the kid has parents who influenced him.
My kids appreciate older cool cars, daughter more than son, actually.
At 49, I was absolutely NOT interested in a 356, 911, or 914 when I was in my teens or 20's...or even 30's, really. I remember not long ago (but maybe 15-20 years ago now) you could get early 911's cheap! 914's were a dime a dozen and nobody wanted them. Not anymore. Today, I would love to own one....and not just because of their current values. They are cool cars. It just took a while for me to realize it. I think the same goes for the 944 series.
While the overall wrenching skill level may be decreasing, the 944 was galvanized so the amount of restoration work needed to restore a rusty 356 isn't going to be there for the younger generation.
Lastly, I think the 944 will also appeal to the future "hipster" (whatever they may be called then).
10-17-2017, 12:55 AM
#26
Rennlist Member
There will always be people interested in turning a wrench. The skill may be in decline, but I don't think it will ever die. I have people chase me down to ask about the car, and more often than not every gas station, grocery store, and restaurant I go to has someone who wants to talk to me about it.
It's always amusing to me when I'm getting take out from a rather busy local Mexican place. They have a bench out front I'll sit on while I wait, and normally I park right there in front of the door. 1 out of 5 groups of people coming or going will start taking about it. "Hey, look! A 928. No no, that's a 924. Really? I think it's a 944." They all go around back to look, then scratch their head since all they see is turbo. Sometimes I chime in, sometimes I don't.
They are really rare around here, I've only seen 3 others since I got mine. That includes PCA events. Seen one 928. So in areas that they are a more common sight it might be different.
About every few times I go get fast food, the 16-18 year old kids working the drive trough will say something about it. There is this one kid at a local McDonald's who asked me if I was on Facebook. When I asked why he said "I wanted to know if you had any pictures of it, I told my Gramps about it and he wants to see pictures".
I don't see interest going away any time soon. As they age and get more rare, I see it growing. You don't see this level of interest in a Civic or Kia.
At long as there is love for them, kids will learn how to work on them. And if many don't care about cars, ask the better. More good ones for those that do.
It's always amusing to me when I'm getting take out from a rather busy local Mexican place. They have a bench out front I'll sit on while I wait, and normally I park right there in front of the door. 1 out of 5 groups of people coming or going will start taking about it. "Hey, look! A 928. No no, that's a 924. Really? I think it's a 944." They all go around back to look, then scratch their head since all they see is turbo. Sometimes I chime in, sometimes I don't.
They are really rare around here, I've only seen 3 others since I got mine. That includes PCA events. Seen one 928. So in areas that they are a more common sight it might be different.
About every few times I go get fast food, the 16-18 year old kids working the drive trough will say something about it. There is this one kid at a local McDonald's who asked me if I was on Facebook. When I asked why he said "I wanted to know if you had any pictures of it, I told my Gramps about it and he wants to see pictures".
I don't see interest going away any time soon. As they age and get more rare, I see it growing. You don't see this level of interest in a Civic or Kia.
At long as there is love for them, kids will learn how to work on them. And if many don't care about cars, ask the better. More good ones for those that do.
10-17-2017, 10:37 AM
#27
Rennlist Member
Another filthy millenial here (31), I intend to keep my 44 as long as possible. I turn all my own wrenches, too. My 944 goes to a shop for nothing, even down to alignments. I will probably contract out for specialist work like engine and transaxle rebuilds, but short of that it's all done in my garage.
I don't know that there really is a huge difference in number of gearheads from generation to generation, to be honest. I work with mostly Boomers and not a single one of them knows how to work on a car. All of my millenial-age friends do at least some level of DIY work, even if it's just at the level of oil changes and brake pads. It's probably just down to the social group you have, who are going to probably be around your own age. In general, most people of all generations don't know squat about how to fix or maintain their cars.
I don't know that there really is a huge difference in number of gearheads from generation to generation, to be honest. I work with mostly Boomers and not a single one of them knows how to work on a car. All of my millenial-age friends do at least some level of DIY work, even if it's just at the level of oil changes and brake pads. It's probably just down to the social group you have, who are going to probably be around your own age. In general, most people of all generations don't know squat about how to fix or maintain their cars.
10-17-2017, 12:00 PM
#28
Drifting
After I finished putting my yellow race car back together, I loaded it on the trailer in my neighborhood some kid, 8 years old maybe, came running out of his house to tell me all about 944s. I was shocked that such a young person would know anything about a 944, never mind being totally enthralled with them. Maybe he will be a future owner. There will always be people who like old mechanical things and don't mind tinkering to make them work.
I'll keep mine for ever I think, so I don't really care what the market does. They are the car I want to drive. I've had mine forever and although I can afford newer faster cars, I just like the 944 series. So I guess I'm a future owner of a 944 too.
I'll keep mine for ever I think, so I don't really care what the market does. They are the car I want to drive. I've had mine forever and although I can afford newer faster cars, I just like the 944 series. So I guess I'm a future owner of a 944 too.
