S2cab

Thoughts on the cooling ability of the two? Are there specific components, like the compressor, that can be upgraded to make the A/C work better?

nh7cy

R12 is best if you can get it.

BeerBurner

For whatever it's worth...

I have converted both of my R-12 cars to R-134a. I decided to do this to make refilling them an easier proposition because I could do it myself.

My Miata blows nice and cool. I suppose it would be better if it had R-12 but whatever, it does what it needs to do quite well so it is clearly "good enough".

My 944's AC is kind of weak. I suspect that the expansion valve is hosed and should have replaced that before I refilled it because it wasn't blowing any cooler before the conversion. (I assumed it wasn't working because the freon was low and made the conversion when my compressor siezed up.) I know someone who made the conversion in his black/black 928 S and is very happy with it.

In my personal opinion, while the R-12 is ultimately better, the R-134a will likely make a more than adequate substitue. If you plan on doing AC work yourself (namely recharging), the ease of R-134a purchase makes it worth doing the conversion. If you aren't going to do the work yourself and will take it in, you may as well spend the extra few dollars and get the R-12.

Since I plan on upkeeping it all myself, I went with the retrofit.

BB.

KuHL 951

Here's my take. I live in a very hot Summer climate. I've converted an 83 to R-134 and it was marginal but OK on the freeway as long as traffic was moving; as soon as the speed drops to where less air moved across the condenser it sucked and barely cooled the car. The BMW has been converted also and does well at speed but suffers the same traffic 'around town' issues as the 944. Converting an R-12 car to R-134 is dependent on where you live and how you plan on using the car and how many components you are willing to replace to get optimum performance. It's not a slam dunk when converting. I have both 951's on R-12 which I still get from Du Pont in Mexico and both cars will still freeze meat in any weather. I would rather convert an R-12 car to Freeze 12 before using R-134. Remember also that R-134 is going to be phased out in the next few years.

marky522

Careful with Freeze 12 as it is VERY flammable. Where are you getting your info that 134a will be phased out soon??? Last i heard they were looking into Co2 but the pressures were INSANELY high.

Mark

BeerBurner

I have also heard that R-134a is going to be phased out. I'll be stocking up in it shortly.

BB.

marky522

The only thing i was able to find about 134 being phased out, was legislation that was trying to passed to mimic what Europe is planning to do, and that was phase out 134 by 2012. No reason to stock up yet.

Mark

BeerBurner

You may be right. But knowing me, I'll lose track of it all and suddenly realize it's NLA when it's too late. Even if it's not going to be phased out shortly, I have no doubt that it'll probably eventually happen, just because that's the nature of these things.

Not that I'm going to get 500 pounds of it... but I'd still like to have some on-hand.

BB.

KuHL 951

It not so much that it will be phased out completely but that the home DIY'er will not be able to buy it in kits anymore. The EPA is working on this currently with the states to prevent DIY servicing and it will become policy. I picked up my EPA license just so I can buy R-12 or R-134. They are trying to prevent people just topping off like with the old R-12.

BTW: R-134 isn't all that environmentally friendly either.

About the flammability comment on Freeze-12 all I can say is gasoline is much more volatile and you still run that in your car right? Show me one case where a car has caught fire from Freeeze-12 or any of the propane based substitutes and I'll show you a thousand fires caused by gas leaks.

Mike C.

I've topped off using Freeze-12 on a 90 Miata with no problems (mixing R-12 with Freeze-12).

Mike C.

Interesting.. This web site claims Freeze-12 is non-flammable...

http://www.sherco-auto.com/fr4012.htm

Mike C.

A little more refrigerant info...

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrig.../refblend.html

marky522

ok, that makes sence. I have my licsence also, so i wont have to worry. Your point is well taken on the Freeze 12, I am just against it for the main fact that when i suck any of those blends out, it contaminates our machine, and I hate cleaning it. And they wont get us a identifier.

Mark

VWaddict

The cooling ability of R134 versus R12 is down to a number of hugely influential factors, including the size, type and ability of the condensor evaporator etc. My wife's Volvo runs R-134 from the factory and struggles... my VW runs R-134 from the factory and will turn your face into an icicle.

Last year the compressor on my 951 died.

The expansion valve, flexible pipe, drier etc. were ALL replaced, new seals were fitted, and the compressor replaced. -Despite me still having a sizable stockpile of R-12, I elected to take the chance to convert to R-134.


I'm here in Florida, and even in the beat-you-down summer sunshine, it will still run uncomfortably cold, to the point where your face hurts from the chill, with the fan on the '1' position.

I contend that the 944/951 system is MORE than capable of working VERY well with R-134 (unlike the Volvo 944) and anyone who wants to is welcome to come for a drive in the summer heat in my car...

If any part of your system isn't working correctly; if the expansion valve is clogged, if the compressor is weak, then you can't blame it all on R-134.

Not that I'm an expert on A/C systems, but I did take it to someone who is... and -while it wasn't cheap to replace everything- it blows plenty cold for me, and I like it COOL... (usually cooler than anyone else in the vehicle).

I don't know if there's any single reason why mine works so well, but I do have rolling, revving proof that the 944/951 A/C system CAN work very well indeed with R-134.

-It was 80° at the PCA autocross yesterday... in December... so just imagine how hard it works in summer down here! -but work it does!

Keith

Tabor

I purchased a whole case of Enviro-Safe (es-refrigerants.com), but I have yet to use it. I could care less that it is flammable.