Potomac-Greg

A tech advised me today that deleting t-bars was not as simple as it sounded; and he recommended against it.

This is one of those stories that keeps evolving.

1: I started out wanting to do the Spec944 suspension, upgrading t-bars and using front coilovers.

2: But reading up on the t-bar indexing nightmare made me consider getting rear "helper" springs to add spring rate.

3: But then I read that if you just stick coilovers with t'bars, you need to load the coilovers, which means droppng the rear, which means monkeying with the t-bars.

4: So then I thought, if I'm monkeying with the t-bars, why not delete them? At least taking them out is easier than indexing them! So I went forward with 400# front springs and 500# rears. I've installed the fronts, but waiting for some lift time to tackle the rears.

I called a local Porsche specialist regarding an alignment, and he asks me what I'm doing. He says you can't just delete t'bars without a LOT of extra modifications. T-bars are a key pivot point (??). I did not know this. He says you CAN run coilovers as helpers without lowering the t-bar setup to load the springs. He recommends sticking with the front 400# coilovers but going with 200-250# rear helpers; drop the rear via the eccentric bolts, and barely load the coilovers.

That's it. I'm back to my #2. Easiest install of all!

Lemming

Well, I deleted my t-bars a few years ago in favor of coilovers, no problems to date. Lot's of others have done the same thing, so you might want to reconsider. I run 600lb springs all around.

SamGrant951

Lots of info in the archives, search and be prepared to kill a few hours reading...

shiners780

The functionality of coilovers trumps torsion bars by a long shot.

xsboost90

just deleted mine- installed Racer'sEdge lower mounts for safety and went w/ 525lb rears. Plenty of others w/ no problems w/o t-bars. Really the hardest part of reindexing the torsions is pulling the rear suspension. If you can do that you can put in a higher rate t-bar no problem. Once you have the suspension laying on the floor, measure the distance from the stabilizer arm that is a large arch over the rear axel- to the rear arm. Re-index them measure again. One spline makes a large difference. Initially i reindexed my torsions two splines and put in some 375lb rear coilovers. Just went w/ larger rear spring and no torsions. Think i'll be much happier.

Scootin159

Some quick notes from my experiences:

1) Indexing of the tbars is nessesary if you replace them OR if adding helpers... ( ** unless helper springs are soft enough that you can get the adjustment you need from the eccentrics.... but with 400# front springs, the matching rears won't fall into this category)

2) "indexing" the bars isn't THAT BAD if you are careful - use the spreadsheet (search)

3) the amount of work in "indexing", "reindexing" and "replacing" are essentially equal

4) the amount of work in "deleting" is essentially the same as well... but saves work in the future, because you'll never need to "reindex"

5) You can safely delete the tbars as they are not structural in "holding the suspension together"... you'll see what I mean when you take it all apart.

6) The only 'weakness' in a tbar delete is the lower shock bolt (and arguably the top bolt if you go to obscene spring rates - not an issue for you though). Search and you'll find a lot more info on this.

7) Upgrade the bushings! it makes more difference than you would expect.

schwank

I am not looking forward to doing the torsion bars next week on the cup car.

I know for sure I am going to rear coils with a torsion bar delete on the turbo. No way am I dealing with these things again on that car.

JustinL

I've got almost exactly what you are suggesting doing. I have 375# in front and 250# coil over with the torsion bars from the turbo S. Eccentrics are lowered as far as they'll go. It's level with my street tires, but there is a bit of a rake with the taller 275/40/17 r compounds. I have my rear springs with tender springs so they don't rattle when they are unloaded. When I installed them I went for a drive to settle the shocks and then tightened the spring collar to the point where the tender spring was flat and the main spring was just starting to work.

On track it feels pretty good, and like I said in the other thread, it would be a bit rough for commuting every day especially with the heim joint bushings.

tomrc

Rear coil overs are not legal in 944 spec, so if you want to do a spec suspension you need to keep the T-bars and 30mm solid/32mm hollow are the largest you can use in spec class.

I'll be doing my T-bars next month, I'm not looking forward to it but if I do it right the first time I don't plan on doing it again. I'm staying within spec specs.

schwank

Actually I was just told by joe paluch yesterday that 31mm hollows are the biggest allowed in spec.

Potomac-Greg

>>>>Head spinning>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>><<<<<

I'm not prepping the car for Spec 944, so I'm just looking for a good handling HPDE car.

I'm sure that with the right equipment, tools and experience, working with the rear t-bars is a one-day project, but I'm an uber-noob on my back on a cold garage floor. I got 2 hours into the job last weekend and realized I needed cheesehead sockets to take off the axles. And I found the cheeseheads by spraying a can of brake cleaner all over the CV joints and my hair and eyes. And who knows if I would have been able to get all the cheeseheads off. . . And I'll be damned if I'm paying 8 hours of labor to have it done for me!!!

Basically, the t-bar plus coilover scheme gets me where I need to be given my circumstances. Maybe I'll keep my 500# springs if I want to go all coilover in the future. Of course now I'm thinking about that rattle problem.....

shiners780

When I pulled my torsion bars I didn't remove the axles. I lowered the torsion tube assembly just enough to pull the spring plates off and the bars out. I also did it solo, with the car on jack stands, on a cold garage floor....and I'm no mechanic either, so I feel your pain. But it can be done with time and determination.

In my opinion, the benefits far outweigh the initial work involved. Once completed you will be easily able to adjust ride height, corner balance, and swap out spring rates.

StoogeMoe

Here's a question:

I saw in Excellence a company had removable torsion bars for the 911. You just pop the cap off the torsion tube, remove a spring clip, and pull out the torsion bar, then put in a new one. They also had an easy ride height adjustment on the plate instead of using an eccentric.

Does anybody make one of these for the 944? Maybe the way the torsion tube lines up with rear wheel well prevents this, but that would be a nice solution instead of having to go to coil overs.

Skip Wolfe

Personally I am not a big fan of coilovers plus torsion bars. The whole reason you would go with rear coilovers is to that you can easily change spring rates , adjust ride height for corner balancing etc. Frequent change of spring rates is not something you need for a street/DE car, and to have it set up so you can change the ride height, you will need to reindex the tbars when the coilovers are first put on. So if you have to go through the hassle of reindexing the bars anyway, why not just go with a bigger tbar right off the bat. Yes, replacing tbars is a bit of a PITA, but you do it once and you are good to go. Adding coilovers with tbars just increases the complexity of the equation with little benefit.

Also use the following procedure with the Excel spreadsheet and you should be able to hit the ride height correctly the first time without the trial and error reindexing procedure that is truly a PITA. http://members.rennlist.com/m758/TbarReindex.htm

If it is a track only car and you want to play with spring rates, ride height, etc, then go to coilovers and just ditch the tbars. Get the Racers Edge lower shock mount, Racers Edge or Elephant Racing spring plate bushings (which you should install on a track car regardless or tbars or coilovers) and you will be fine.

vt951

WARNING: Be careful with those cheesehead bolts. I stripped a few of them when I did my torsion bars. It cost me many hours and probably 50 dremel grinding disks to cut off the heads. Maybe mine were over torqued, but I found them very easy to strip if you don't have a good bit and push really hard into the head while torquing them out.