Water4Gas and save your money at the pump?
04-14-2009, 06:40 PM
#92
Burning Brakes
Okay, 944J gets a Thread Necromancer Award for this one.
While it's obvious that trying to burn electroliticly-generated hydrogen for energy is just dumb, I think the contention is actually that injecting a small amount of hydrogen causes the fuel to burn more "efficiently".
This, however, is stupid, too. Unless you're running rich or lean, inefficiency happens *after* combustion.
Oh, and Legoland, while you are really for all intents and purposes correct, you're technically very slightly wrong. Oxygen can burn. There is a special form of oxygen called "ozone" (O3) which burns into regular O2, with a great deal of exothermy.
Regular O2, of course, no way.
While it's obvious that trying to burn electroliticly-generated hydrogen for energy is just dumb, I think the contention is actually that injecting a small amount of hydrogen causes the fuel to burn more "efficiently".
This, however, is stupid, too. Unless you're running rich or lean, inefficiency happens *after* combustion.
Oh, and Legoland, while you are really for all intents and purposes correct, you're technically very slightly wrong. Oxygen can burn. There is a special form of oxygen called "ozone" (O3) which burns into regular O2, with a great deal of exothermy.
Regular O2, of course, no way.
04-14-2009, 09:11 PM
#96
Three Wheelin'
I just love how every one of these threads always ends up with engineers saying it doesn't work and then coming up with ideas that would work.
I'm gonna start adding heavy water and ozone into my gas tank...
I'm gonna start adding heavy water and ozone into my gas tank...
04-14-2009, 09:16 PM
#97
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by U.S. DOE
Engine Losses – 62.4%
In gasoline-powered vehicles, over 62% of the fuel's energy is lost in the internal combustion engine (ICE). ICE engines are very inefficient at converting the fuel's chemical energy to mechanical energy, losing energy to engine friction, pumping air into and out of the engine, and wasted heat.
Advanced engine technologies such as variable valve timing and lift, turbocharging, direct fuel injection, and cylinder deactivation can be used to reduce these losses.
In addition, diesels are about 30-35% more efficient than gasoline engines, and new advances in diesel technologies and fuels are making these vehicles more attractive.
In gasoline-powered vehicles, over 62% of the fuel's energy is lost in the internal combustion engine (ICE). ICE engines are very inefficient at converting the fuel's chemical energy to mechanical energy, losing energy to engine friction, pumping air into and out of the engine, and wasted heat.
Advanced engine technologies such as variable valve timing and lift, turbocharging, direct fuel injection, and cylinder deactivation can be used to reduce these losses.
In addition, diesels are about 30-35% more efficient than gasoline engines, and new advances in diesel technologies and fuels are making these vehicles more attractive.
Not to mention the current cost of Hydrogen sufficient in volume to affect the efficiency of the gasoline engine as opposed to the cost of a gallon of gas makes the entire discussion moot..
Now when gas was $4+ a gallon it MIGHT have been possible to research the Hydrogen economy enough to make a sufficient impact. As of right now, at least in the U.S., we are well below a cost per mile in GAS even if we are getting 5MPG, that hydrogen is not, and will not become any time soon a suitable replacement, nor supplement for good old Dino juice...
Should Gasoline ever get to $10 a gallon, more people MIGHT look at hydrogen, but that is a good long way off... I hope... now Ethanol, or Methanol, or even Nitromethanol there are real fuels...
"Gas is for cleaning parts, Nitro is for racing"
What really amazes me is enough people believe the BS propagated by installing a jar of water in your car to impact the efficiency to make it worth while for the seller to keep selling...
Last edited by JohnKoaWood; 04-14-2009 at 09:32 PM.
04-14-2009, 09:50 PM
#98
Burning Brakes
that hydrogen is not, and will not become any time soon a suitable replacement, nor supplement for good old Dino juice...
But the real problem in finding a good replacement for gasoline is energy density. Few substances that you can fuel a car with have an energy density anywhere near that of gasoline.
Batteries suck. The only reason the Tesla is actually a decent car is that the sheer awesomeness of electric motors compared to piston engines mostly makes up for how badly batteries suck.
The energy density of hydrogen by mass, however, is *three times* that of gasoline, and *one-third* that of gasoline by volume (liquid).
So it's in the correct order of magnitude, at least.
The two problems are the danger of carrying around compressed liquid hydrogen in things that crash (oh, the humanity), and the expense.
The expense, however, may be surmountable. We're going to need to build lots of breeder reactors, since the prehistoric-algae-juice is going away fast. That means cheap electricity, which obviously brings the price of hydrogen down.
Of course, if you're going to assume cheap electricity, then directly electric cars are a competitor as well. It becomes a race between battery technology and hydrogen storage and injection technology.
In any case, gasoline is quite replaceable as an energy *source* (and if we don't, we're in trouble), but replacing it for energy *storage* is the major problem.
04-14-2009, 09:58 PM
#99
Nordschleife Master
Yeah, not to mention that it won't help anything, because it won't magically put more energy into the gasoline. It will just add its own inherent energy to the process, and if you have to get from water, by using electricity, which you got by burning gasoline, then you're just wasting gas.
In terms of cost, yes.
But the real problem in finding a good replacement for gasoline is energy density. Few substances that you can fuel a car with have an energy density anywhere near that of gasoline.
Batteries suck. The only reason the Tesla is actually a decent car is that the sheer awesomeness of electric motors compared to piston engines mostly makes up for how badly batteries suck.
The energy density of hydrogen by mass, however, is *three times* that of gasoline, and *one-third* that of gasoline by volume (liquid).
So it's in the correct order of magnitude, at least.
The two problems are the danger of carrying around compressed liquid hydrogen in things that crash (oh, the humanity), and the expense.
The expense, however, may be surmountable. We're going to need to build lots of breeder reactors, since the prehistoric-algae-juice is going away fast. That means cheap electricity, which obviously brings the price of hydrogen down.
Of course, if you're going to assume cheap electricity, then directly electric cars are a competitor as well. It becomes a race between battery technology and hydrogen storage and injection technology.
In any case, gasoline is quite replaceable as an energy *source* (and if we don't, we're in trouble), but replacing it for energy *storage* is the major problem.
In terms of cost, yes.
But the real problem in finding a good replacement for gasoline is energy density. Few substances that you can fuel a car with have an energy density anywhere near that of gasoline.
Batteries suck. The only reason the Tesla is actually a decent car is that the sheer awesomeness of electric motors compared to piston engines mostly makes up for how badly batteries suck.
The energy density of hydrogen by mass, however, is *three times* that of gasoline, and *one-third* that of gasoline by volume (liquid).
So it's in the correct order of magnitude, at least.
The two problems are the danger of carrying around compressed liquid hydrogen in things that crash (oh, the humanity), and the expense.
The expense, however, may be surmountable. We're going to need to build lots of breeder reactors, since the prehistoric-algae-juice is going away fast. That means cheap electricity, which obviously brings the price of hydrogen down.
Of course, if you're going to assume cheap electricity, then directly electric cars are a competitor as well. It becomes a race between battery technology and hydrogen storage and injection technology.
In any case, gasoline is quite replaceable as an energy *source* (and if we don't, we're in trouble), but replacing it for energy *storage* is the major problem.
04-15-2009, 08:14 PM
#104
Nordschleife Master
04-15-2009, 08:58 PM
#105
Nordschleife Master
Make sure you put Rennlist members on the invite list for your funeral first... Just so we can show up and dispute weather or not to roller paint your Casket...