So what oil is REALLY synthetic????
12-19-2002, 12:16 PM
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So what oil is REALLY synthetic????
I found a post on a Land Rover site that had some interesting information about sythetic motor oils...and specifically Castrol Syntec:
"In December of 98, Castrol Syntec was reformulated to the current formulation. The base product in an oil that composes most of the oil before the additives are put in, are the base stocks. Just like Mobil 1, the previous base stock in the former formulation of Castrol Syntec was formulated using PolyAlphaOlefins(PAO's). However, when Syntec was reformulated, everyone found out that Syntec no longer contained a synthetic base stock, and in fact the base stock was nothing more than a hydrocracked conventional petroleum oil using the process that Shell uses in their Hydrocracked synthetic oil. Castrol Syntec has become nothing more than a mere synthetic blend, by utilizing a Group III hydrocrackd base stock, and then adding a few synthetic additives. Before it was reformulated, Syntec was 100% synthetic as advertised, but after the reformulation it was no longer 100% synthetic as they still claim. You may ask, isn't this deception? No, not really because the definition of what a true synthetic oil is really vague. According to the SAE or API(forgot which one), the definition of what constitutes a synthetic, is based on how the oil performs, not what it's composed of. Because of this definition, manufacturers can take a conventional hydrocracked oil that is 100% conventional, and if they tweak it to perform like a synthetic, they can legally claim that it's 100% synthetic. I find this to be extremely deceptive. When Castrol reformulated Syntec, Mobil immediately filed a lawsuit against Castrol over the right to call a synthetic, but because of the definition of what is a synthetic above, Mobil lost the lawsuit. The sad fact, is that ever since that lawsuit, many manufactures of "100%" synthetic oil have now gone the same route that Castrol has done since a precedence has now been set in the court of law. Castrol therefore maintained their right to claim Syntec as 100% synthetic, when it's base stock is nothing but hydrocracked dino oil. I honestly don't care whether some tweaked up oil can perform, or even outperform some synthetics out there, I will not pay premium prices when I know it's really not composed of anything synthetic other than a few of the additives. This is why i'm shocked that according to the latest study, Castrol is the number 2 selling synthetic oil out there trailing behind Mobil 1 which we KNOW is fully synthetic. "
Sort of scarey, eh? I just started using Syntec...and had assumed it was as sythetic as Mobil 1 and others. Apparently not all sythetics are what they say!
-Steve
"In December of 98, Castrol Syntec was reformulated to the current formulation. The base product in an oil that composes most of the oil before the additives are put in, are the base stocks. Just like Mobil 1, the previous base stock in the former formulation of Castrol Syntec was formulated using PolyAlphaOlefins(PAO's). However, when Syntec was reformulated, everyone found out that Syntec no longer contained a synthetic base stock, and in fact the base stock was nothing more than a hydrocracked conventional petroleum oil using the process that Shell uses in their Hydrocracked synthetic oil. Castrol Syntec has become nothing more than a mere synthetic blend, by utilizing a Group III hydrocrackd base stock, and then adding a few synthetic additives. Before it was reformulated, Syntec was 100% synthetic as advertised, but after the reformulation it was no longer 100% synthetic as they still claim. You may ask, isn't this deception? No, not really because the definition of what a true synthetic oil is really vague. According to the SAE or API(forgot which one), the definition of what constitutes a synthetic, is based on how the oil performs, not what it's composed of. Because of this definition, manufacturers can take a conventional hydrocracked oil that is 100% conventional, and if they tweak it to perform like a synthetic, they can legally claim that it's 100% synthetic. I find this to be extremely deceptive. When Castrol reformulated Syntec, Mobil immediately filed a lawsuit against Castrol over the right to call a synthetic, but because of the definition of what is a synthetic above, Mobil lost the lawsuit. The sad fact, is that ever since that lawsuit, many manufactures of "100%" synthetic oil have now gone the same route that Castrol has done since a precedence has now been set in the court of law. Castrol therefore maintained their right to claim Syntec as 100% synthetic, when it's base stock is nothing but hydrocracked dino oil. I honestly don't care whether some tweaked up oil can perform, or even outperform some synthetics out there, I will not pay premium prices when I know it's really not composed of anything synthetic other than a few of the additives. This is why i'm shocked that according to the latest study, Castrol is the number 2 selling synthetic oil out there trailing behind Mobil 1 which we KNOW is fully synthetic. "
Sort of scarey, eh? I just started using Syntec...and had assumed it was as sythetic as Mobil 1 and others. Apparently not all sythetics are what they say!
-Steve
12-19-2002, 12:45 PM
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AMSOIL is also 100% synthetic, and most people who know about it prefer it over Mobil 1. I've used both, and ended up using Mobil 1 just due to the fact that you can buy it in just about any auto parts store. Try finding AMSOIL in a store.
However, I'm thinking about going back to dino oil. At 112,000 miles, it has lived most of it's life on dino oil, and since being changed to synthetic by the PO seems to get a lot more oil leaks. Synthetic oil is a lot thinner, and while it lubricates better, and never breaks down like conventional dino oils (under normal conditions), it is a lot more capable of squeezing past a lot of 14 yr old seals. I think that as long as oil changes are made religiously BEFORE the 3000 recommended interval, it will run just as well, and hopefully there will be less leaks and turbo blowby.
MJ
However, I'm thinking about going back to dino oil. At 112,000 miles, it has lived most of it's life on dino oil, and since being changed to synthetic by the PO seems to get a lot more oil leaks. Synthetic oil is a lot thinner, and while it lubricates better, and never breaks down like conventional dino oils (under normal conditions), it is a lot more capable of squeezing past a lot of 14 yr old seals. I think that as long as oil changes are made religiously BEFORE the 3000 recommended interval, it will run just as well, and hopefully there will be less leaks and turbo blowby.
MJ
12-19-2002, 01:09 PM
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There were some follow up replies that said 'other' oil companies were starting to reformulate in the same way...no doubt a cheaper way to produce something they can 'call' full synthetic. But Mobil 1 was mentioned as still using a full synthetic base. Anyone know for sure?
As for me, Syntec is what LandRover is using in my Freelander...and at 12K intervals!! Yikes. I'm doubling up on that and changing it every 6K.
I had gone to Syntec on my 944 and was going to do a change every 5K. Perhaps I'll switch to Mobil 1...Amsoil or Redline would be great but I'd have to mailorder it...no local guys stock it.
Steve
As for me, Syntec is what LandRover is using in my Freelander...and at 12K intervals!! Yikes. I'm doubling up on that and changing it every 6K.
I had gone to Syntec on my 944 and was going to do a change every 5K. Perhaps I'll switch to Mobil 1...Amsoil or Redline would be great but I'd have to mailorder it...no local guys stock it.
Steve
12-19-2002, 01:23 PM
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[quote] Synthetic oil is a lot thinner, and while it lubricates better, and never breaks down like conventional dino oils (under normal conditions), it is a lot more capable of squeezing past a lot of 14 yr old seals <hr></blockquote>
I'm not so sure it is thinner as viscosity is viscosity. I think more accurately synthetic oil has smaller molecules.
Also, I have read that some of the additives in synthetic oils can actually swell seals, causing things to seal back up (good) or bind (bad). I have actually experienced this when switching between various shock oils on MTB forks. The oil was the same viscosity, but after the switch the sliders felt bound up on the stanchion tubes.
[quote] Synthetic oil is a lot thinner, and while it lubricates better, and never breaks down like conventional dino oils (under normal conditions), it is a lot more capable of squeezing past a lot of 14 yr old seals <hr></blockquote>
I'm not so sure it is thinner as viscosity is viscosity. I think more accurately synthetic oil has smaller molecules.
Also, I have read that some of the additives in synthetic oils can actually swell seals, causing things to seal back up (good) or bind (bad). I have actually experienced this when switching between various shock oils on MTB forks. The oil was the same viscosity, but after the switch the sliders felt bound up on the stanchion tubes.
12-19-2002, 01:24 PM
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I found this quote in a huge thread on mercedesshop.com
""I do not know how many times I have to quote Mobil's own words to prove to you that Mobil 1 with Supersyn IS NOT 100% PAO. Here it goes one more time:
"These include polyalphaolefins (PAOs) and other ExxonMobil® engineered fluids which make up the Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ formula. "
It is PAO and "other ExxonMobil® engineered fluids", not just PAO.""
""I do not know how many times I have to quote Mobil's own words to prove to you that Mobil 1 with Supersyn IS NOT 100% PAO. Here it goes one more time:
"These include polyalphaolefins (PAOs) and other ExxonMobil® engineered fluids which make up the Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ formula. "
It is PAO and "other ExxonMobil® engineered fluids", not just PAO.""
12-19-2002, 02:54 PM
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Well, here's what Mobil says:
"What is synthetic oil?
All motor oils are made up of base oils and additives. In general, fully synthetic motor oils contain non-conventional, high-performance fluids and a system of additives to help prevent wear, keep an engine clean, flow easily, maintain viscosity, prevent rust and reduce friction. The result is a lubricant that remains liquid and slippery under the widest possible range of temperatures and engine conditions.
What makes synthetic oil superior to conventional oil?
Historically, conventional oils lack the performance of synthetic oils in the areas of low-temperature performance and high-temperature oxidation stability. Conventional motor oil is made up of an inconsistent mixture of long and short chains of carbon and hydrogen atoms. In the extreme heat of an engine, short-chain molecules can evaporate, and unstable molecules can oxidize and break down. Conventional oils also contain much greater amounts of impurities, such as sulfur, reactive and unstable hydrocarbons, and other undesirable contaminants that cannot be completely removed by conventional refining of crude oil.
Mobil 1® with SuperSyn™ uses high-performance fluids, including polyalphaolefins (PAOs), along with a proprietary system of additives. Each Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ viscosity grade uses a unique combination of synthetic fluids and selected additives in order to tailor the viscosity grade to its specific application."
Curious, they say "non-conventional high-performance fluids" in the first response, but then say Mobil 1 has "high-performance fluids, including polyalphaolefins (PAOs)". Are they non-conventional? Might this be some Marketing Weasel wording here...or am I being paranoid???
"What is synthetic oil?
All motor oils are made up of base oils and additives. In general, fully synthetic motor oils contain non-conventional, high-performance fluids and a system of additives to help prevent wear, keep an engine clean, flow easily, maintain viscosity, prevent rust and reduce friction. The result is a lubricant that remains liquid and slippery under the widest possible range of temperatures and engine conditions.
What makes synthetic oil superior to conventional oil?
Historically, conventional oils lack the performance of synthetic oils in the areas of low-temperature performance and high-temperature oxidation stability. Conventional motor oil is made up of an inconsistent mixture of long and short chains of carbon and hydrogen atoms. In the extreme heat of an engine, short-chain molecules can evaporate, and unstable molecules can oxidize and break down. Conventional oils also contain much greater amounts of impurities, such as sulfur, reactive and unstable hydrocarbons, and other undesirable contaminants that cannot be completely removed by conventional refining of crude oil.
Mobil 1® with SuperSyn™ uses high-performance fluids, including polyalphaolefins (PAOs), along with a proprietary system of additives. Each Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ viscosity grade uses a unique combination of synthetic fluids and selected additives in order to tailor the viscosity grade to its specific application."
Curious, they say "non-conventional high-performance fluids" in the first response, but then say Mobil 1 has "high-performance fluids, including polyalphaolefins (PAOs)". Are they non-conventional? Might this be some Marketing Weasel wording here...or am I being paranoid???
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12-19-2002, 03:09 PM
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There is no doubt in my mind that what you read is "weaseling" In so many words they have admitted that there is more than PAO's in the base stock.
They can even legally say that the base stock is PAO based. If you only had 10% PAO base and added to it with dino base could you not still claim PAO based? I think you could and I think they have.
It seems that major issue came with the Exxon-Mobil merger. That is when the shifty business seems to have begun. Engineering for profit, that is what we are seeing. The Castrol decision gave the bean counters all of the ammo they needed to make such a change. Why make the good stuff, which costs more to produce, when they can get away with a cheaper product that can be sold as the same thing? So much for ethics in business.
I know one thing for sure. Amsoil clearly advertises 100% PAO base stock. It might be a little more effort to get but, at least I know what I am getting.
I have also been hearing positive things from 928 owners that have switched from M1 to Amsoil. Less blow-by, less foaming (a 928 issue) and better performance in oil analysis. <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />
They can even legally say that the base stock is PAO based. If you only had 10% PAO base and added to it with dino base could you not still claim PAO based? I think you could and I think they have.
It seems that major issue came with the Exxon-Mobil merger. That is when the shifty business seems to have begun. Engineering for profit, that is what we are seeing. The Castrol decision gave the bean counters all of the ammo they needed to make such a change. Why make the good stuff, which costs more to produce, when they can get away with a cheaper product that can be sold as the same thing? So much for ethics in business.
I know one thing for sure. Amsoil clearly advertises 100% PAO base stock. It might be a little more effort to get but, at least I know what I am getting.
I have also been hearing positive things from 928 owners that have switched from M1 to Amsoil. Less blow-by, less foaming (a 928 issue) and better performance in oil analysis. <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />
12-19-2002, 03:40 PM
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Pigpile...
A small snippet of what Redline has to say about this subject:
[quote]Red Line lubricants contain polyol ester basestocks, the only lubricants which can withstand the tremendous heat of modern jet engines, which makes our motor oil a necessity to properly lubricate a turbocharger or hot- running engine. The synthetic basestocks have a natural multigrade property, which means that large amounts of unstable polymeric thickeners are not required to manufacture our multigrades.<hr></blockquote>
More about Redline Synthetic Oils can be found <a href="http://www.redlineoil.com/frames/engoil.htm" target="_blank">HERE</a>
While most of the oil industry is driven by costs that *most* consumers are willing to spend for a consumable product, those in the industry of *making things right every time* do not. Yes, you pay more - Yes, you get more - Yes, I am biased.
Good Luck!
A small snippet of what Redline has to say about this subject:
[quote]Red Line lubricants contain polyol ester basestocks, the only lubricants which can withstand the tremendous heat of modern jet engines, which makes our motor oil a necessity to properly lubricate a turbocharger or hot- running engine. The synthetic basestocks have a natural multigrade property, which means that large amounts of unstable polymeric thickeners are not required to manufacture our multigrades.<hr></blockquote>
More about Redline Synthetic Oils can be found <a href="http://www.redlineoil.com/frames/engoil.htm" target="_blank">HERE</a>
While most of the oil industry is driven by costs that *most* consumers are willing to spend for a consumable product, those in the industry of *making things right every time* do not. Yes, you pay more - Yes, you get more - Yes, I am biased.
Good Luck!
12-19-2002, 08:44 PM
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12-20-2002, 11:40 AM
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