944S Boyeee's clutch bleed saga!!!

Jeff928S4 · 12-06-2002, 04:53 PM

So, after replacing my Slave, I attempted the feared clutch bleed.

I was alone, with no power bleeder or anything and I gave it a shot. After about 15 attempts, it got too damn cold and I quit. I said, "Screw this, I'm takin' it to a garage!!".

I figured any local garage could bleed it, no problem....(I see all of you shaking your heads right now).

So, I drop it off this morning at a local repair shop who claim to "have the manual for this car on file...". This particular place has done all the work on my parents Mini-van and my Sidekick and have been excellent. I figured they would have no problems at all.

I get a call a couple of hours ago from the guy there who says I need a new clutch!!! He said they bleeded it and there was no clutch. They were "afraid" to test drive it and asked me to come down to see if the clutch is supposed to be like it is. I started to laugh on the phone.

I went down and the clutch pedal would only come up about 4-5 inches. Everything worked ok, I drove it. I could snap the pedal up with my foot. Gee, what does that sound like? Sounds like symptoms of a bad Slave or Master, doesn't it? And what causes these symptoms?? Perhaps AIR in the system!!? So, I went back in and asked again if they got all the air out. "Sure did!!" the fella said, "It was easy!!".

So, I go back out and do the ol' "squeeze the blue hose" trick (for those of you unfamiliar with this trick, it's when I squeeze the braided hose coming out of the reservior and watch air squirt out of the breather nipple on the top of the reservoir) - bam!!! - air comes a popin' out of it. Huuuuuummmmmmmmmm - did they say they got all the air out?

So, I go in the shop, ask the guy who bled it to come out and showed him that if you pump the pedal AND get someone to keep squeezing the blue hose in an upwards motion towards the reservoir, that the last tiny bit of air should come out. He repeated....."All of the air is out - the clutch is gone!".

After about 15 pumps (while also pumping the brake, just for good measure), the pedal came back up to normal. I was doing the hose squeeze and the "tech" was pumping the pedals. After about 7 pumps he said, "I told ya - it ain't coming up!!". After 15 pumps and the pedal returning to where it was supposed to be, I said, "You didn't order my clutch parts yet, did ya????". His face had a look of confusion.

All while they were having their problems, I was searching Pelican and Rennlist for solutions. When I went down to the shop, I said I was just on the internet looking for some help. Everyone in the shop started laughing. I heard one guy mutter, "Ya, the internet - that's a good place to figure out how to fix a Porsche!!", in his sarcastic voice. They really made me feel like I was an idiot and that they were the be all, end all of Porsche mechanics.

When I went back in after showing them how to basically check to see if there is still air in the lines (the blue hose squeeze trick), I said - "Some glad I had the boys and Rennlist and Pelican Parts.....if I didn't have them, I'd still be waiting for you "Porsche techs" to figure it out!!" (I even did the quotations thing with my fingers as I said Porsche techs). I went on to say, "Hey, next time you guys think a clutch is gone in a car - type <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/</a> in your browser address line and ask the fellas what to do - they know about cars". They looked at me like I had three heads when I said the browser stuff. Not Internet junkies in the least. One guy said, "Ya, they may know a lot about that specific model on the Internet, but ask them a question about a Mustang!".

It was at that point I realized who I was dealing with and simply smiled and said, "Ya, those Mustangs - very complex vehicle they are". They didn't get my sarcasim, they all nodded their heads like, "Yes - the Mustang IS a very complex vehicle". As I was leaving, I noticed two of the mechanics were guys I went to High School with and these guys were not exactly honor students. I guess the difference between being a mechanic and being a good mechanic is all about having a bit o' brains, eh??.....but - man, do they hate it when some punk with a Porsche tells them they are wrong about fixin' a car.

Ahhhhh - what a fun afternoon!! Car works great now. The pedal is almost 100% back (I'd say it's about 95% right now). I figure whatever tiny bit of air is left in there hopefully will work it's way out somehow in the next couple of weeks or I'll have to get it re-bled.

By the way - they didn't charge me anything. The owner was there when I showed the mechanic that you have to pump and squeeze. I think he was either embarrassed that the mechanic was so uninsightful or embarrassed that the "You need a new clutch" trick didn't pan out for them. Either way, I got a free bleed and made some new friends

.

944S Boyeee

pete944 · 12-06-2002, 05:02 PM

That's too funny. I swear I'll never pay someone to work on my car. If I can't fix it, it'll sit until I figure out how.

Next time buy the Motive bleeder. Ten minutes and your done.

Bryan · 12-06-2002, 05:08 PM

Man. The $40 I spend on the "Power Bleeder" has definitely paid for itself if this is how shops bleed clutches.

Also, pretty much every European car with a hydraulic clutch is like the Porsche setup. I've personally bled clutches on Audis, BMWs and Porsches and couldn't have done it without the Power Bleeder. They're all the same - they all need to be pressure bled.

And also, if you push the piston all the way into the clutch slave then attach it to the line, you don't have to do as much bleeding. Being clever with zip ties accomplishes this.

Bryan

"At Porsche, we only make sports cars"

944Play · 12-06-2002, 05:09 PM

I really think you can get away without a pressure bleeder if you elevate the back of the car while bleeding the clutch.

But hey, majority rules I guess.

Jeff928S4 · 12-06-2002, 05:28 PM

On another note....when I lost my fluid, my (!) light didn't come on. I have noticed that ever since I got the car back from the head re-build, the (!) light is "weak".

I was down a litre of oil the other day and no (!) light. The light came on before when I was only down like 1/4 a litre. I have a stumbling idle and when it used to drop low, the (!) light would flicker - now the (!) light only comes on if the RPM drop to almost 0. The (!) light does work (it has shown up during really bad idle drops) - but why isn't it as "strong" as before?

Is there something I can clean or something? It just seems that whatever signals are supposed to be getting to the (!) light, are not getting there in full force or something.

944S Boyeee

mouse · 12-06-2002, 05:36 PM

Sega was cool back in the day

Sorry I couldn't resist

Jeff928S4 · 12-06-2002, 05:39 PM

I noticed that also and was gonna edit it - but I do like Sega, so I left it

I'll edit now - cause it does make me look dumb!!

See, my (!) light is not working right - it should have come on and told me I typed Sega instead of Saga!!

944S Boyeee

jim968 · 12-06-2002, 05:55 PM

Hey, Boyee.... the master caution ('!') light, along with all the other warning lights (exept low fuel, IIRC), should come on when you are starting the car, as a bulb test. Does it / do they?

The low brake fluid light should be a pretty easy troubleshoot if it's not working. If the bulb lights on start-up, it's likely the float or switch contacts in the reservoir is stuck. If the bulb doesn't light on start, it's probably the bulb, but could be the power supply to the circuit or the wiring, or the ground.

The low oil light is the same situation, but the float switch is in the crankcase, so somewhat harder to get to, but you can do a meter check for continuity during your next oil change.

If they work, but are dim / flickery, you need to check the grounds, starting with the logical culprit, the big one behind the head, since someone's been putzing around in that area recently....

Jim, TFGIF!

M758 · 12-06-2002, 08:31 PM

Great Story!!! LOL
<img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />

mike10562004 · 09-30-2009, 10:29 AM

hey bro u just saved me some dough! lol i use to be a mechanic through high school and if i didnt know what i was doing i would at least ask unlike these dumb %#$# lol but seriously i dont know how many times ive looked on different fourms to find solutions to the customers problems thank gosh for the computer age!

thanks bro for the write up it actually helped me

Potomac-Greg · 09-30-2009, 11:32 AM

Once you start doing your own mechanical work, it's really hard to trust the "experts." Even shops that are reputed to be experts will initially try to slam you with unnecessary jobs (until they find out that you know something). When I got my car back from a clutch job, the starter was hanging by one loose bolt, and other bits were missing (including the rubber cap on the rear coupler).

12-06-2002, 04:53 PM	#1
Jeff928S4 Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Sackville, Nova Scotia Posts: 2,008	944S Boyeee's clutch bleed saga!!! So, after replacing my Slave, I attempted the feared clutch bleed. I was alone, with no power bleeder or anything and I gave it a shot. After about 15 attempts, it got too damn cold and I quit. I said, "Screw this, I'm takin' it to a garage!!". I figured any local garage could bleed it, no problem....(I see all of you shaking your heads right now). So, I drop it off this morning at a local repair shop who claim to "have the manual for this car on file...". This particular place has done all the work on my parents Mini-van and my Sidekick and have been excellent. I figured they would have no problems at all. I get a call a couple of hours ago from the guy there who says I need a new clutch!!! He said they bleeded it and there was no clutch. They were "afraid" to test drive it and asked me to come down to see if the clutch is supposed to be like it is. I started to laugh on the phone. I went down and the clutch pedal would only come up about 4-5 inches. Everything worked ok, I drove it. I could snap the pedal up with my foot. Gee, what does that sound like? Sounds like symptoms of a bad Slave or Master, doesn't it? And what causes these symptoms?? Perhaps AIR in the system!!? So, I went back in and asked again if they got all the air out. "Sure did!!" the fella said, "It was easy!!". So, I go back out and do the ol' "squeeze the blue hose" trick (for those of you unfamiliar with this trick, it's when I squeeze the braided hose coming out of the reservior and watch air squirt out of the breather nipple on the top of the reservoir) - bam!!! - air comes a popin' out of it. Huuuuuummmmmmmmmm - did they say they got all the air out? So, I go in the shop, ask the guy who bled it to come out and showed him that if you pump the pedal AND get someone to keep squeezing the blue hose in an upwards motion towards the reservoir, that the last tiny bit of air should come out. He repeated....."All of the air is out - the clutch is gone!". After about 15 pumps (while also pumping the brake, just for good measure), the pedal came back up to normal. I was doing the hose squeeze and the "tech" was pumping the pedals. After about 7 pumps he said, "I told ya - it ain't coming up!!". After 15 pumps and the pedal returning to where it was supposed to be, I said, "You didn't order my clutch parts yet, did ya????". His face had a look of confusion. All while they were having their problems, I was searching Pelican and Rennlist for solutions. When I went down to the shop, I said I was just on the internet looking for some help. Everyone in the shop started laughing. I heard one guy mutter, "Ya, the internet - that's a good place to figure out how to fix a Porsche!!", in his sarcastic voice. They really made me feel like I was an idiot and that they were the be all, end all of Porsche mechanics. When I went back in after showing them how to basically check to see if there is still air in the lines (the blue hose squeeze trick), I said - "Some glad I had the boys and Rennlist and Pelican Parts.....if I didn't have them, I'd still be waiting for you "Porsche techs" to figure it out!!" (I even did the quotations thing with my fingers as I said Porsche techs). I went on to say, "Hey, next time you guys think a clutch is gone in a car - type <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/</a> in your browser address line and ask the fellas what to do - they know about cars". They looked at me like I had three heads when I said the browser stuff. Not Internet junkies in the least. One guy said, "Ya, they may know a lot about that specific model on the Internet, but ask them a question about a Mustang!". It was at that point I realized who I was dealing with and simply smiled and said, "Ya, those Mustangs - very complex vehicle they are". They didn't get my sarcasim, they all nodded their heads like, "Yes - the Mustang IS a very complex vehicle". As I was leaving, I noticed two of the mechanics were guys I went to High School with and these guys were not exactly honor students. I guess the difference between being a mechanic and being a good mechanic is all about having a bit o' brains, eh??.....but - man, do they hate it when some punk with a Porsche tells them they are wrong about fixin' a car. Ahhhhh - what a fun afternoon!! Car works great now. The pedal is almost 100% back (I'd say it's about 95% right now). I figure whatever tiny bit of air is left in there hopefully will work it's way out somehow in the next couple of weeks or I'll have to get it re-bled. By the way - they didn't charge me anything. The owner was there when I showed the mechanic that you have to pump and squeeze. I think he was either embarrassed that the mechanic was so uninsightful or embarrassed that the "You need a new clutch" trick didn't pan out for them. Either way, I got a free bleed and made some new friends . 944S Boyeee __________________ Formally "944S Boyeee" 1989 928 S4 Auto - Canadian Edition (speedo is in only Klms - 300....Wooo!!! ) 127,000 Klms Guards Red on Black Leather

12-06-2002, 05:02 PM	#2
pete944 Addict Lifetime Rennlist Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 7,266	That's too funny. I swear I'll never pay someone to work on my car. If I can't fix it, it'll sit until I figure out how. Next time buy the Motive bleeder. Ten minutes and your done. __________________ Pete My former cars: The S2 Project- - -1985.5 944- - -P-car Online

12-06-2002, 05:28 PM	#5
Jeff928S4 Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Sackville, Nova Scotia Posts: 2,008	On another note....when I lost my fluid, my (!) light didn't come on. I have noticed that ever since I got the car back from the head re-build, the (!) light is "weak". I was down a litre of oil the other day and no (!) light. The light came on before when I was only down like 1/4 a litre. I have a stumbling idle and when it used to drop low, the (!) light would flicker - now the (!) light only comes on if the RPM drop to almost 0. The (!) light does work (it has shown up during really bad idle drops) - but why isn't it as "strong" as before? Is there something I can clean or something? It just seems that whatever signals are supposed to be getting to the (!) light, are not getting there in full force or something. 944S Boyeee __________________ Formally "944S Boyeee" 1989 928 S4 Auto - Canadian Edition (speedo is in only Klms - 300....Wooo!!! ) 127,000 Klms Guards Red on Black Leather

12-06-2002, 05:39 PM	#7
Jeff928S4 Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Sackville, Nova Scotia Posts: 2,008	I noticed that also and was gonna edit it - but I do like Sega, so I left it I'll edit now - cause it does make me look dumb!! See, my (!) light is not working right - it should have come on and told me I typed Sega instead of Saga!! 944S Boyeee __________________ Formally "944S Boyeee" 1989 928 S4 Auto - Canadian Edition (speedo is in only Klms - 300....Wooo!!! ) 127,000 Klms Guards Red on Black Leather

12-06-2002, 08:31 PM	#9
M758 Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Phoenix, Az Posts: 12,982	Great Story!!! LOL <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> __________________ Joe P. 88 944 Turbo S - 100% Stock ++++++++ 84 - 944 Spec #94 Red/White Arizona Region 944Spec Director - Az 944 Spec Champion 02/03, 2006 - 2nd Az Region 944 Spec 2003,2004,2008, 2009 4th - 2009 NASA Nationals - Fastest 944 spec lap at Miller Nationals - 2.19.282 (Sat Warm-up)

12-06-2002, 05:08 PM	#3
Bryan User Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 784	Man. The $40 I spend on the "Power Bleeder" has definitely paid for itself if this is how shops bleed clutches. Also, pretty much every European car with a hydraulic clutch is like the Porsche setup. I've personally bled clutches on Audis, BMWs and Porsches and couldn't have done it without the Power Bleeder. They're all the same - they all need to be pressure bled. And also, if you push the piston all the way into the clutch slave then attach it to the line, you don't have to do as much bleeding. Being clever with zip ties accomplishes this. Bryan "At Porsche, we only make sports cars"

12-06-2002, 05:09 PM	#4
944Play User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chico, CA Posts: 617	I really think you can get away without a pressure bleeder if you elevate the back of the car while bleeding the clutch. But hey, majority rules I guess.

12-06-2002, 05:36 PM	#6
mouse User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 766	Sega was cool back in the day Sorry I couldn't resist

12-06-2002, 05:55 PM	#8
jim968 User Join Date: May 2001 Location: Asheville,NC (Don't move here!!!) Posts: 1,745	Hey, Boyee.... the master caution ('!') light, along with all the other warning lights (exept low fuel, IIRC), should come on when you are starting the car, as a bulb test. Does it / do they? The low brake fluid light should be a pretty easy troubleshoot if it's not working. If the bulb lights on start-up, it's likely the float or switch contacts in the reservoir is stuck. If the bulb doesn't light on start, it's probably the bulb, but could be the power supply to the circuit or the wiring, or the ground. The low oil light is the same situation, but the float switch is in the crankcase, so somewhat harder to get to, but you can do a meter check for continuity during your next oil change. If they work, but are dim / flickery, you need to check the grounds, starting with the logical culprit, the big one behind the head, since someone's been putzing around in that area recently.... Jim, TFGIF!

09-30-2009, 10:29 AM	#10
mike10562004 User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 303	hey bro u just saved me some dough! lol i use to be a mechanic through high school and if i didnt know what i was doing i would at least ask unlike these dumb %#$# lol but seriously i dont know how many times ive looked on different fourms to find solutions to the customers problems thank gosh for the computer age! thanks bro for the write up it actually helped me

09-30-2009, 11:32 AM	#11
Potomac-Greg Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Suburban DC Posts: 1,659	Once you start doing your own mechanical work, it's really hard to trust the "experts." Even shops that are reputed to be experts will initially try to slam you with unnecessary jobs (until they find out that you know something). When I got my car back from a clutch job, the starter was hanging by one loose bolt, and other bits were missing (including the rubber cap on the rear coupler). __________________ 1988 944 Equipped with everything but horsepower.