It's On!!! Official Group Buy: Gear Reduction Starter

[ideola]

I am working with IMI to adapt one of their existing lightweight, high-torque, gear reduction starters for the 931, 924S and 944*. These will specifically be a replacement for the factory item 951.604.101.00, which is listed for any 931, 924S, and 944 through 1991 with a manual transmission (*note: there is another unit listed for late 944s with the M198 option, part number 951.604.102.00, I cannot verify compatibility with this item because I don't know how it differs).

Here is a partial feature list:

• 4.440 to1 gear reduction
• Light weight (under 9 pounds)
• Provides 525 plus ft. lbs. of torque
• Long lasting and durable
• Compact design
• Heat resistant solenoid
• 5 full roller bearing construction
• Draws less current than other units
• Easy re-positioning for better clearance
• Vented solenoid for better heat resistance

From what I understand, these units are fully indexable (remove three screws, rotate the housing, reattach screws), allowing for proper positioning on the various applications (i.e. the 2.0L-based 931 requires the solenoid in a slightly different indexed location than the 2.5L-based 924S/944).

I have sent a sample to IMI, they have confirmed the ability to produce these, and I hope to narrow down group buy discounting later this morning. Early pricing indications are somewhere in the $215-$260 range for a single unit, not sure yet on volume discount. These prices compare favorably to rebuilt Bosch units.

This group buy is currently being run over on 924board.org, but if there is sufficient interest here on Rennlist, I'll extend the same pricing and terms to Rennlisters as well. Please post any questions as well as your interest.

{EDIT}
Here's an idea of what the starter looks like:

[Chads996]

Curious. What is the stock starter's weight?

C.

[ideola]

The one I shipped out to IMI weighed 11 pounds. Admittedly, not much weight savings on the 924S/944 models, but the 931 unit has a much larger and heavier case, weighs about 15 pounds. I was planning to just install a 944 starter on my 931 track project, but I liked the idea of having the hi-torque gear reduction features, so when I discovered these were about the same cost of a rebuilt Bosch unit, it was sort of a no-brainer.

[ideola]

OK, boys and girls, some good news on this topic! I confirmed with the supplier that the clockwise (924NA) and counter-clockwise (931/924S/944) versions can be combined in any combination for our group buy. Here are the details

PRICING

• Single unit: $230 each
• 5-9 units: $210 each
• 10-19 units: $190 each
• 20+ units: $185 each

PARTICIPATION
In order to participate, we will need funding up front, and we will run this just like we did for previous group buys. I will use the PayPal account associated with my side business "Ideola New Media" to coordinate. This will include collecting the incoming payments, disbursements to the manufacturer, drop shipment from the factory to Michigan, and outbound shipments from Michigan to each participant. Here is the process:

• Ideola will issue paypal invoices to each of the participants that verbally commit in this thread.
• The invoice will be for the full amount of the total number of pieces ordered at the QTY 5 discount level, plus the 4% paypal tax
• Participants will remit payment via PayPal or certified funds to Ideola by 15 June 2009 (that is two weeks out)
• Ideola will approve the order with the supplier for the appropriate quantity of pieces based on payments received by 15 June 2009.
• If we get into the 10 unit or 20 unit price break, the additional discount will be applied toward your shipping costs from Michigan. Any leftover money not used up by shipping costs will be refunded to you via paypal.
• Upon receipt of the completed order, Ideola will issue firm shipping quotes via PayPal invoices to the participants. The shipping cost will be determined by dividing the factory shipment costs by the total number of participants, and adding each participant's shipping fees from Michigan to their locale.
• Upon receipt of shipping payments, Ideola will ship the orders to each participant using the least expensive shipping method that provides tracking, delivery confirmation, and insurance.

LIST OF PARTICIPANTS

• ideola: confirmed for 1 piece

For Rennlisters who may not be that familiar with me (Ideola), we have successfully commissioned and executed several notable group buys for the 924 2.0L platform over the last year, including some products that were never before available on the aftermarket. They include ARP rod bolts, Cometic MLS head gaskets, main bearings, Performance valve springs, Piper solid lifters, etc. The great news with this product is that there is cross-over compatibility between the 931 2.0L starter and the later 924S / 944 2.5L starter. Hopefully, this will translate into broader participation, and a greater discount for everyone!

Feel free to PM me with any questions you may have about the starter itself or the group buy process.

[Van]

Is there any other real benefit other than the 2 lbs weight savings?

[KuHL 951]

Good job! Have you sized one up for the 951 w/ heat shield and 3" exhaust? The OE unit is a tight squeeze already. Pricing and design is really excellent.

[ideola]

Originally Posted by Van

Is there any other real benefit other than the 2 lbs weight savings?

Yes. "high torque" or "gear reduction" starters are a much more modern design than the 20+ year old designs of our existing starters. They are constructed using a small electric motor that is connected to a planetary gearset. This design reduces the speed required and increases the torque of the shaft of the motor. The additional benefit is that this results in MUCH less strain on the battery, less draw on the aging wiring in these cars, and more reliable, faster starting. This is especially beneficial on high-stress applications such as cars that will see track time.

In addition, this particular make uses a heat resistant and heat-shielded solenoid design (again, a major benefit on virtually all 2.0L and 2.5L variants given the proximity of the stock starter to hot exhaust manifolds and pipes). Also, these use roller bearings instead of the needle bearing design in the Bosch units, which again improves longevity, durability, etc.

In short, if Porsche were making the 924 / 944 today, this is probably the type of starter you would find on the car. It is a modern replacement for the old style starters.

[ideola]

Originally Posted by KuHL 951

Good job! Have you sized one up for the 951 w/ heat shield and 3" exhaust? The OE unit is a tight squeeze already. Pricing and design is really excellent.

Unfortunately, I do not have access to a 951, and I am unfamiliar with the orientation and installation on a 951. However, if your car uses the 951.604.101.00 part number, this should be a direct fit replacement, and in fact, should ease any fitment issues because it is smaller and more compact. However, I can't guarantee fitment because I don't have one in my hands, and even if I did, I don't have a 951 to test fit it on. The best thing I can suggest is to check PET for your starter part number. If someone has a 951 core they'd be willing to send to me, I'd be more than happy to coordinate with the supplier to confirm fitment and application.

[Van]

Gotcha, so with this I could run a puny little lawn mower battery in my track car?

[KuHL 951]

Originally Posted by ideola

Unfortunately, I do not have access to a 951, and I am unfamiliar with the orientation and installation on a 951. However, if your car uses the 951.604.101.00 part number, this should be a direct fit replacement, and in fact, should ease any fitment issues because it is smaller and more compact. However, I can't guarantee fitment because I don't have one in my hands, and even if I did, I don't have a 951 to test fit it on. The best thing I can suggest is to check PET for your starter part number. If someone has a 951 core they'd be willing to send to me, I'd be more than happy to coordinate with the supplier to confirm fitment and application.

If it's smaller than the 951 part # it should be no problem on a turbo even with heat shields or larger exhaust. If the heat shields could be eliminated it would be an added bonus.

951 starter on left, NA on right

[ideola]

Originally Posted by Van

Gotcha, so with this I could run a puny little lawn mower battery in my track car?

LOL, not sure about that, but I've gotten some other questions regarding the amperage draw...they mention it requires "less draw", but I'll see if I can get them to cite a specific figure.

Originally Posted by KuHL 951

If it's smaller than the 951 part # it should be no problem on a turbo even with heat shields or larger exhaust. If the heat shields could be eliminated it would be an added bonus.

KuHL, can you take measurements of those two starters (total length of housing, total diameter or circumference of housing)? Also, what is the part number of the unit on the left? What year is your 951...I'd like to see what PET says about your part number. I sent in a sample of the aforementioned part number, from memory it looked more like the one on the left, but it's hard to say without having it in front of me. The NA starter in your picture looks a lot like the early 924/931 starter, with the much larger diameter housing.

[blown 944]

Gear reduction starters are a much better design. They were the only type that would consistently turn the high compression engines over BITD.

Ahh .. timing .... what a pain .... I'll be thinking strongly about it.

You should Xpost this in the turbo forum. I imagine a few would be interested

[75ohm]

Oh man!

[ideola]

Originally Posted by blown 944

Gear reduction starters are a much better design. They were the only type that would consistently turn the high compression engines over BITD.

Ahh .. timing .... what a pain .... I'll be thinking strongly about it.

You should Xpost this in the turbo forum. I imagine a few would be interested

Thanks! I was hesitant to x-post over there because I'm less familiar with the 951's, as it's the one variant of the water cooled cars I haven't yet owned. If we can get clarity on fitment and interchangeability, it certainly will be great to expand the audience so that everyone benefits!

[KuHL 951]

Originally Posted by ideola

...KuHL, can you take measurements of those two starters (total length of housing, total diameter or circumference of housing)? Also, what is the part number of the unit on the left? What year is your 951...I'd like to see what PET says about your part number. I sent in a sample of the aforementioned part number, from memory it looked more like the one on the left, but it's hard to say without having it in front of me. The NA starter in your picture looks a lot like the early 924/931 starter, with the much larger diameter housing.

I can't do that since the larger NA one is on my 86 turbo at the moment. I have the smaller 951 starter (951 604 101 00) somewhere in a crate so I'll try to find it. All starters are superceded by the 951 starter in PET as far back as 83 now. When you order a rebuilt starter from a supply house they are both the same number and you can get either the early fat boy type or 951 style depending on what core the rebuilder used.