944S2 repair decision to make

krazykarl · 10-12-2009, 05:59 PM

I am looking for input has to how to proceed with my 1989 944S2. It looks like the thrust bearing is failing on the engine, as the front crank pulley moves forward a good 1-3mm when pushed on from the back. I just had the cylinder head and head gasket replaced due to a crack and I'm not sure if it's worth it for me to repair the car.

A few more details:
116k miles on the engine
exterior and interior are in very good shape
clutch replaced within 10k miles

So far one shop has quoted me 4.5k to replace the main bearings and the rod bearings, and if I have them pull the head again to replace the piston rings I imagine it will cost at least another grand. I didn't have a full rebuild done when the head was replaced because the bottom end looked and felt fine at the time and I didn't want to make that sort of investment in the car.

I supposed I could try and sell the car as-is with full disclosure, but given the market and the bill coming to the next owner I can't see getting more then 4-5k for the car. I could have the work done and keep the car but I honestly don't think I could ever enjoy driving it again after all the headaches it has caused. In addition I will be unable to afford to properly upgrade the suspension for autocross and track use like I want to. I could have the work done and attempt to sell the car for more then what I paid last year with the added value being that the car basically has a new engine, but again with the market it could take a long time to sell that way.

I really don't have the expertise or energy to attempt to pull and repair the engine myself, though that would be the most cost effective solution if I managed to do it correctly. Just looking for input on my options or some other possible solution to this wonderful situation I have been placed in.

krystar · 10-12-2009, 06:28 PM

aw, that sux.

i'd do it for ya for much less than 4 grand, but logistics of getting car to my garage and impending winter would make it really hard heh

krazykarl · 10-12-2009, 06:38 PM

I could sell it to you for a reasonable price, then you could fix it and make a nice profit =)

Matt Sheppard · 10-12-2009, 07:28 PM

Most thrust bearing failures on 944/951 engines that I have seen muff the crank as well and the problem is more common than you may think.

Not that it is so with your motor, but just saying. . .

krystar · 10-12-2009, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krazykarl

I could sell it to you for a reasonable price, then you could fix it and make a nice profit =)

how about i buy it for 34.50 no randeezling, no wickdmonkeying, no nothing.

aren't there any techs at like local tuner shops that could do it on the side? ask crsx :P

Riff · 10-12-2009, 08:49 PM

Wouldn't a good used motor run you less?

Sorry about the car, don't let the experience sour you on the S2.

krazykarl · 10-12-2009, 08:58 PM

I am not sure to be honest, I haven't really looked into a used engine. I suppose if I found one for a reasonable price I could swap them and reclaim the refreshed head to sell for a decent chunk of change.

racer · 10-12-2009, 10:03 PM

You might look on the 944Cup websites/classifieds for a used motor. Sorry to hear of your woes and the current cycle of spending you are enduring currently. I've always viewed 100K mile cars as "teenagers".. they can be upredictable and need a lot of replacements/upgrades, to go for the next 100K miles. As mentioned, if you do go ahead and repair the entire motor, you would have the solace of (hopefully) having a new to you S2. The devil you know vs the one you don't. A new motor and recent clutch are big $$ that you would likely never see on a resale. Better to keep it for the long haul

As for suspension.. not sure how you intend to use it (heavy DE use, SCCA AX etc), but how old are the current components? I would look for some used suspension parts.. or, simply learn to drive the car as it is (very soft I assume) and save up for the upgrades. How extensive are the upgrades you want to do?

If it were me, I'd fix it and keep it and push back the suspension upgrades for another year.

whalebird · 10-12-2009, 10:12 PM

Are you sure that 1 - 3mm is out of spec? Sounds normal to me.

krazykarl · 10-12-2009, 10:40 PM

Right now the suspension is all stock. I was autocrossing the car as well as planning on doing DE events, I was hoping next year to purchase 968 sway bars and koni coilovers for all four corners. It certainly looked more play then normal, but I supposed it's possible that the clutch pedal problem that lead to the discovery could be coming from somewhere else.

Matt Sheppard · 10-12-2009, 10:58 PM

Yeah, 1-3 mm? Did you use a dial indicator or just eyeball it?

My 951 had 5-6 mm endplay before I rebuilt it - crank was bugger on the center-main thrust surface but the block was still OK.

krazykarl · 10-12-2009, 11:16 PM

It was just an eyeball measurement. I never noticed the engine change its tone under heavy breaking or sound any different. After replacing the clutch master and slave and not eliminating the problem I brought it to a shop and that was their assessment. It's possible the shop is using normal endplay as an excuse to get my business. Does Porsche have a specific tolerance for end play in the S2 engine?

EDIT: the 8valve workshop manual states .40 is the wear limit for crank end play. Nothing is listed in the 16v workshop manual so I can only assume it's the same. Question is, what measurement is that value?

Matt Sheppard · 10-13-2009, 02:08 AM

forgetaboutit. Even if it is out of "spec", what is the worst that can happen? End play wont bugger your new head. You can obtain a complete running 968 motor for $4K - an S2 motor should be less. Unless you have bearing material constantly going through your motor in large quantities, which I doubt, I bet you get lots of life out of it without having to find a replacement motor.

I had at least 5mm of end play an my first 951 and that motor still ran strong @ 270K miles when I tore it down to reseal.

Unless you really want to pay for your mechanics retirement, just drive it.

krystar · 10-13-2009, 09:43 AM

ah if it's not a big problem like matt says....then

run her till she dies, then tow her home and fix her back up!

krazykarl · 10-13-2009, 10:17 AM

If I accept it as normal, I still have to resolve the soft clutch pedal issue under heavy braking. Could the torque tube or transaxle be sliding forward?

10-12-2009, 05:59 PM	#1
krazykarl User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 540	944S2 repair decision to make I am looking for input has to how to proceed with my 1989 944S2. It looks like the thrust bearing is failing on the engine, as the front crank pulley moves forward a good 1-3mm when pushed on from the back. I just had the cylinder head and head gasket replaced due to a crack and I'm not sure if it's worth it for me to repair the car. A few more details: 116k miles on the engine exterior and interior are in very good shape clutch replaced within 10k miles So far one shop has quoted me 4.5k to replace the main bearings and the rod bearings, and if I have them pull the head again to replace the piston rings I imagine it will cost at least another grand. I didn't have a full rebuild done when the head was replaced because the bottom end looked and felt fine at the time and I didn't want to make that sort of investment in the car. I supposed I could try and sell the car as-is with full disclosure, but given the market and the bill coming to the next owner I can't see getting more then 4-5k for the car. I could have the work done and keep the car but I honestly don't think I could ever enjoy driving it again after all the headaches it has caused. In addition I will be unable to afford to properly upgrade the suspension for autocross and track use like I want to. I could have the work done and attempt to sell the car for more then what I paid last year with the added value being that the car basically has a new engine, but again with the market it could take a long time to sell that way. I really don't have the expertise or energy to attempt to pull and repair the engine myself, though that would be the most cost effective solution if I managed to do it correctly. Just looking for input on my options or some other possible solution to this wonderful situation I have been placed in. Last edited by krazykarl; 10-12-2009 at 06:30 PM.

10-12-2009, 07:28 PM	#4
Matt Sheppard Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kalifornyuh Posts: 1,794	Most thrust bearing failures on 944/951 engines that I have seen muff the crank as well and the problem is more common than you may think. Not that it is so with your motor, but just saying. . . __________________ Matt Sheppard '87 951 "SteinGrau" on Linen - its stock, I swear! pics 4_11_08 '92 968 Coupe Grand Prix White - parting _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "Rennlist: It takes a village to fix a car"

10-12-2009, 08:49 PM	#6
Riff Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: North Of Chicago Posts: 1,761	Wouldn't a good used motor run you less? Sorry about the car, don't let the experience sour you on the S2. __________________ Riff '90 S2 '07 MZ3 My Rennlist Member Website My P-Caronline Profile

10-12-2009, 10:03 PM	#8
racer Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,334	You might look on the 944Cup websites/classifieds for a used motor. Sorry to hear of your woes and the current cycle of spending you are enduring currently. I've always viewed 100K mile cars as "teenagers".. they can be upredictable and need a lot of replacements/upgrades, to go for the next 100K miles. As mentioned, if you do go ahead and repair the entire motor, you would have the solace of (hopefully) having a new to you S2. The devil you know vs the one you don't. A new motor and recent clutch are big $$ that you would likely never see on a resale. Better to keep it for the long haul As for suspension.. not sure how you intend to use it (heavy DE use, SCCA AX etc), but how old are the current components? I would look for some used suspension parts.. or, simply learn to drive the car as it is (very soft I assume) and save up for the upgrades. How extensive are the upgrades you want to do? If it were me, I'd fix it and keep it and push back the suspension upgrades for another year. __________________ 1987 944 Past 2000 Boxster 1978 Euro SC Coupe 1976 914 2.0 1970 914 w/ 2056

10-12-2009, 10:58 PM	#11
Matt Sheppard Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kalifornyuh Posts: 1,794	Yeah, 1-3 mm? Did you use a dial indicator or just eyeball it? My 951 had 5-6 mm endplay before I rebuilt it - crank was bugger on the center-main thrust surface but the block was still OK. __________________ Matt Sheppard '87 951 "SteinGrau" on Linen - its stock, I swear! pics 4_11_08 '92 968 Coupe Grand Prix White - parting _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "Rennlist: It takes a village to fix a car" Last edited by Matt Sheppard; 10-12-2009 at 11:28 PM.

10-12-2009, 06:28 PM	#2
krystar Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Schaumburg, IL Posts: 2,184	aw, that sux. i'd do it for ya for much less than 4 grand, but logistics of getting car to my garage and impending winter would make it really hard heh

10-12-2009, 06:38 PM	#3
krazykarl User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 540	I could sell it to you for a reasonable price, then you could fix it and make a nice profit =)

10-12-2009, 08:58 PM	#7
krazykarl User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 540	I am not sure to be honest, I haven't really looked into a used engine. I suppose if I found one for a reasonable price I could swap them and reclaim the refreshed head to sell for a decent chunk of change.

10-12-2009, 10:12 PM	#9
whalebird Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Blue Ridge Mountains NC. Posts: 1,422	Are you sure that 1 - 3mm is out of spec? Sounds normal to me.

10-12-2009, 10:40 PM	#10
krazykarl User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 540	Right now the suspension is all stock. I was autocrossing the car as well as planning on doing DE events, I was hoping next year to purchase 968 sway bars and koni coilovers for all four corners. It certainly looked more play then normal, but I supposed it's possible that the clutch pedal problem that lead to the discovery could be coming from somewhere else.

10-12-2009, 11:16 PM	#12
krazykarl User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 540	It was just an eyeball measurement. I never noticed the engine change its tone under heavy breaking or sound any different. After replacing the clutch master and slave and not eliminating the problem I brought it to a shop and that was their assessment. It's possible the shop is using normal endplay as an excuse to get my business. Does Porsche have a specific tolerance for end play in the S2 engine? EDIT: the 8valve workshop manual states .40 is the wear limit for crank end play. Nothing is listed in the 16v workshop manual so I can only assume it's the same. Question is, what measurement is that value?

10-13-2009, 02:08 AM	#13
Matt Sheppard Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kalifornyuh Posts: 1,794	forgetaboutit. Even if it is out of "spec", what is the worst that can happen? End play wont bugger your new head. You can obtain a complete running 968 motor for $4K - an S2 motor should be less. Unless you have bearing material constantly going through your motor in large quantities, which I doubt, I bet you get lots of life out of it without having to find a replacement motor. I had at least 5mm of end play an my first 951 and that motor still ran strong @ 270K miles when I tore it down to reseal. Unless you really want to pay for your mechanics retirement, just drive it. __________________ Matt Sheppard '87 951 "SteinGrau" on Linen - its stock, I swear! pics 4_11_08 '92 968 Coupe Grand Prix White - parting _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "Rennlist: It takes a village to fix a car"

10-13-2009, 09:43 AM	#14
krystar Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Schaumburg, IL Posts: 2,184	ah if it's not a big problem like matt says....then run her till she dies, then tow her home and fix her back up!

10-13-2009, 10:17 AM	#15
krazykarl User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 540	If I accept it as normal, I still have to resolve the soft clutch pedal issue under heavy braking. Could the torque tube or transaxle be sliding forward?