Cool 944 LS1 build video
11-03-2009, 10:37 AM
#31
I think the costs start adding up once you get things apart and begin to add on little items here and there. You get "upgraditis" and begin to replace everything.
I also don't see these "cheap" motors everyone talks of. Buying a pullout means you really are taking a crap shoot. You have no idea what you are getting. You can get a brand new LS3 crate from GMPP with a two year warranty for @$6,500 but you have to buy the controller/harness for another $1,000 and then any accessories.
I'm still no where near ready for my motor so I have plenty of time to look but I like the idea of having plug and play for the crate including fly by wire.
I also don't see these "cheap" motors everyone talks of. Buying a pullout means you really are taking a crap shoot. You have no idea what you are getting. You can get a brand new LS3 crate from GMPP with a two year warranty for @$6,500 but you have to buy the controller/harness for another $1,000 and then any accessories.
I'm still no where near ready for my motor so I have plenty of time to look but I like the idea of having plug and play for the crate including fly by wire.
11-03-2009, 12:09 PM
#32
I'm not too worried about junk yard motors. I have used many in the past for swaps. The reliability of the LSx motors is not a big worry.
Even if you picked up a motor with 100k on it, how many miles are you going to add to that? Even if it were another 100K that motor should be in fine shape.
I think what is really going on here is the urge to buy 110% top shelf stuff that has been pre-fabbed and over priced. What I would like to know is what it could cost with well done reasonable parts and your own labor.
Even if you picked up a motor with 100k on it, how many miles are you going to add to that? Even if it were another 100K that motor should be in fine shape.
I think what is really going on here is the urge to buy 110% top shelf stuff that has been pre-fabbed and over priced. What I would like to know is what it could cost with well done reasonable parts and your own labor.
11-03-2009, 12:16 PM
#33
Rainman
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They also had a CLEAN white 968 coupe with LS1 in it.
They run a good operation.
11-03-2009, 12:54 PM
#35
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I'm not too worried about junk yard motors. I have used many in the past for swaps. The reliability of the LSx motors is not a big worry.
Even if you picked up a motor with 100k on it, how many miles are you going to add to that? Even if it were another 100K that motor should be in fine shape.
I think what is really going on here is the urge to buy 110% top shelf stuff that has been pre-fabbed and over priced. What I would like to know is what it could cost with well done reasonable parts and your own labor.
Even if you picked up a motor with 100k on it, how many miles are you going to add to that? Even if it were another 100K that motor should be in fine shape.
I think what is really going on here is the urge to buy 110% top shelf stuff that has been pre-fabbed and over priced. What I would like to know is what it could cost with well done reasonable parts and your own labor.
11-03-2009, 01:39 PM
#37
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1. "I'm not too worried about junk yard motors. I have used many in the past for swaps. The reliability of the LSx motors is not a big worry."
brilliant
2. "Even if you picked up a motor with 100k on it, how many miles are you going to add to that? Even if it were another 100K that motor should be in fine shape."
perhaps a bit extreme
3. "I think what is really going on here is the urge to buy 110% top shelf stuff that has been pre-fabbed and over priced. What I would like to know is what it could cost with well done reasonable parts and your own labor."
brilliant
Cole,
what I had sugested as a great alternative to a costly crate engine would be anything like what I had seen on ebay, [the LS2 that went for $2,950 with 13k] on it.
But anything from 20-50 k miles is just gonna be the steal of the century. The logic you are using really becomes a maximum gain, because even when one of these motors is showing some wear, after say, 150,000 miles of synthetic oil and easy loading, you are still in living in such an extreme power to weight context that your lust for speed will likely be queched right to old age.
Hard to find ? I don't necessarily think so. I have seen quite a few.
That's why i say do it with a really clean 951, [for the taller gears inside], or a sweet S2 or 968.
__________________
brilliant
2. "Even if you picked up a motor with 100k on it, how many miles are you going to add to that? Even if it were another 100K that motor should be in fine shape."
perhaps a bit extreme
3. "I think what is really going on here is the urge to buy 110% top shelf stuff that has been pre-fabbed and over priced. What I would like to know is what it could cost with well done reasonable parts and your own labor."
brilliant
Cole,
what I had sugested as a great alternative to a costly crate engine would be anything like what I had seen on ebay, [the LS2 that went for $2,950 with 13k] on it.
But anything from 20-50 k miles is just gonna be the steal of the century. The logic you are using really becomes a maximum gain, because even when one of these motors is showing some wear, after say, 150,000 miles of synthetic oil and easy loading, you are still in living in such an extreme power to weight context that your lust for speed will likely be queched right to old age.
Hard to find ? I don't necessarily think so. I have seen quite a few.
That's why i say do it with a really clean 951, [for the taller gears inside], or a sweet S2 or 968.
__________________
11-03-2009, 02:15 PM
#38
Even if you matched the mileage of your 951 to the engine the life span of the LSx is probably greater than the stock 2.5L plant. My 951 has 123k on it for example. Just a thought.
11-03-2009, 03:39 PM
#40
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11-03-2009, 08:52 PM
#41
I posted this question on Hybrid9s.com
Here was the first informative answer.
....and a photo of his swap I found on his link.
Here was the first informative answer.
These are round numbers since my conversion has been done for 4 yrs. I will list them in order from necessary to individual use template ( mine is a street legal track car).
$2500 Renegade Kit ( bellhousing is hard for most of us to fab, RH will not sell just the BH.
$3000 LS1 donor engine
$600 aluminum radiator
$150 wiring harness and PCM programming
$700 headers ( got mine from RH, others have sources too)
So figure around $7k for a driveable car, but the following are highly suggested;
$500-$1200 for upgraded brakes. This much hp has to have better brakes since you gave up the power booster.
$1200-1500 for Turbo tranny (if you convert an NA car) with limited slip diff.
$3000 for paint unless you like having a custom car in a stock colour.
SO now you are around 12 grand, and adding serious track options
My track bits;
$2500 coilovers at the corners
$700 upgraded sway bars
$600 new suspension arms in the front ( again the hp and track thing)
$450 partial roll cage
$600 for Fiberwerks nose with ducts to cool brakes.
$500 lighter weight Tenzo racing seats
$150 Momo Wheel ( cuz i wanted it and its smaller than stock wheel)
$1000 18" alloy twist wheels (used) to get the larger tire patch on the pavement.
$450 satellite radio and other electronics to run the One Lap of America
$350 3" 5 point harnesses.
So figure around $7200 more and you can be around 20 grand, BUT, you have a very desirable, very safe, very fast and enviable ride that you can enjoy on the street, the road, AND the track. I know I can not sell mine for that, but thats ok, i will not sell it anyway. I may even have left some bits out. Now those that fab stuff themselves will have WAY less in the car. It depends on what want to do in the car, and what you can fab yourself.
www.expuppy.com
$2500 Renegade Kit ( bellhousing is hard for most of us to fab, RH will not sell just the BH.
$3000 LS1 donor engine
$600 aluminum radiator
$150 wiring harness and PCM programming
$700 headers ( got mine from RH, others have sources too)
So figure around $7k for a driveable car, but the following are highly suggested;
$500-$1200 for upgraded brakes. This much hp has to have better brakes since you gave up the power booster.
$1200-1500 for Turbo tranny (if you convert an NA car) with limited slip diff.
$3000 for paint unless you like having a custom car in a stock colour.
SO now you are around 12 grand, and adding serious track options
My track bits;
$2500 coilovers at the corners
$700 upgraded sway bars
$600 new suspension arms in the front ( again the hp and track thing)
$450 partial roll cage
$600 for Fiberwerks nose with ducts to cool brakes.
$500 lighter weight Tenzo racing seats
$150 Momo Wheel ( cuz i wanted it and its smaller than stock wheel)
$1000 18" alloy twist wheels (used) to get the larger tire patch on the pavement.
$450 satellite radio and other electronics to run the One Lap of America
$350 3" 5 point harnesses.
So figure around $7200 more and you can be around 20 grand, BUT, you have a very desirable, very safe, very fast and enviable ride that you can enjoy on the street, the road, AND the track. I know I can not sell mine for that, but thats ok, i will not sell it anyway. I may even have left some bits out. Now those that fab stuff themselves will have WAY less in the car. It depends on what want to do in the car, and what you can fab yourself.
www.expuppy.com
....and a photo of his swap I found on his link.
11-03-2009, 09:28 PM
#42
Rainman
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i met tony g at his house one time to check out his ls1 951, his car is really well done, its been swapped for a few years now and he gets something like 390whp.
for the record he says that the stock 951 radiator will outperform the RH radiator so that can save some money.
for the record he says that the stock 951 radiator will outperform the RH radiator so that can save some money.
11-03-2009, 10:44 PM
#43
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Great work Cole and V2,
If I over-estimated the costs in some of the earlier threads I surely appreciate that you guys are laying some of my shabby work to rest...
I am hardly an expert... but I wish to take part in the conversation to help get to the bottom of this.
First, to keep it simple I will stay on topic:
We should leave the suspension/brake/transaxle gear/LSD upgrades out of the conversation since it is equally desireable to do these at any time when we upgrade our cars. We can do this work at some point after driving our hybrid transaxles out of the shop and stick to the posted speeds - lol.
To repeat what you guys have already said: lots of variables here... depending first with how much you choose to do in fabricating... and how much labor you choose to purchase.
But I am going to offer one possible point of view and listen to you guys critique it.
I was on the phone with Tony Garcia a couple of hours ago and we talked for about 90 minutes about some of the details of this build... First, the issue with the radiator is a simple matter, and you guys already covered that topic.
So, skip the radiator from Renegade due to its extremely high price... that being said,
-- the list of stuff that you REALLY DO NEED is slightly LONGER than the items in the basic Renegade sells in the basic kit...
and your 100 trips back and forth to the auto supply store, fabricating and plumbing everything in will add up fast.
First of all Tony Garcia is the man. His knowledge of the transaxle supercar is off the charts.
The practicality of this build is something on the order of "Nissan GTR/Chevrolet ZR1" levels of quality and durability.
Oh, and you can forget about having a car that leaks **** all over humanity while you're beating on it.
As Tony was mentioning to me, you can spend as much time fabricating as many parts as you wish to do after you've purchased a basic kit...
Tony: "why fabricate anything when you can just buy it ? The money saved is barely worth the aggrivation."
The stuff you absolutely need will run from 4,200 + dollars for the bellhousing kit, radiator if you need one, clutch, wiring harness-ecm, headers, additional plumbing for PS, hydrolic assisted brakes, and to make everything CLEAN and functional in the engine bay.
That includes buying A LOT of the stuff that Renegade's optional parts list - [short of the radiator].
Pulling out all the old equipment, and then getting the lower driveline all done is not an easy job for most mortals like myself. Figure about 50-70+ hours of your own work. Tony offers a generous price of $5,000 dollars for the labor which includes him needing to do some fabricating to have your power-assisted braking back up and running.
Just prior to installation, Tony would be taking a trip to the autoparts store and spending around 7-8 hundred on additional stuff.
He changes over from the vacuum assist system to hydrolic assist with the help of a power steering loop.
Finally, a trip to the muffler shop. I am all about saving weght.
I think I might run a Y-Pipe off the headers into a single 4" pipe and run that back to a Hooker Maxflow muffler for the ultimate turbo-look exit, but that's just me. btw, does anyone know what the right Sanderson headers run for ?
I spent around $1,700.00 for new big blacks, rotors, pads, adaptors and bias valve and getting it all installed.
I will call Renegade tomorrow and get the numbers a little bit closer, or maybe you guys can figure out what is best added on from the LONG list included below. [upgraditus].
Allan -- Massachusetts.
./
If I over-estimated the costs in some of the earlier threads I surely appreciate that you guys are laying some of my shabby work to rest...
I am hardly an expert... but I wish to take part in the conversation to help get to the bottom of this.
First, to keep it simple I will stay on topic:
We should leave the suspension/brake/transaxle gear/LSD upgrades out of the conversation since it is equally desireable to do these at any time when we upgrade our cars. We can do this work at some point after driving our hybrid transaxles out of the shop and stick to the posted speeds - lol.
To repeat what you guys have already said: lots of variables here... depending first with how much you choose to do in fabricating... and how much labor you choose to purchase.
But I am going to offer one possible point of view and listen to you guys critique it.
I was on the phone with Tony Garcia a couple of hours ago and we talked for about 90 minutes about some of the details of this build... First, the issue with the radiator is a simple matter, and you guys already covered that topic.
So, skip the radiator from Renegade due to its extremely high price... that being said,
-- the list of stuff that you REALLY DO NEED is slightly LONGER than the items in the basic Renegade sells in the basic kit...
and your 100 trips back and forth to the auto supply store, fabricating and plumbing everything in will add up fast.
First of all Tony Garcia is the man. His knowledge of the transaxle supercar is off the charts.
The practicality of this build is something on the order of "Nissan GTR/Chevrolet ZR1" levels of quality and durability.
Oh, and you can forget about having a car that leaks **** all over humanity while you're beating on it.
As Tony was mentioning to me, you can spend as much time fabricating as many parts as you wish to do after you've purchased a basic kit...
Tony: "why fabricate anything when you can just buy it ? The money saved is barely worth the aggrivation."
The stuff you absolutely need will run from 4,200 + dollars for the bellhousing kit, radiator if you need one, clutch, wiring harness-ecm, headers, additional plumbing for PS, hydrolic assisted brakes, and to make everything CLEAN and functional in the engine bay.
That includes buying A LOT of the stuff that Renegade's optional parts list - [short of the radiator].
Pulling out all the old equipment, and then getting the lower driveline all done is not an easy job for most mortals like myself. Figure about 50-70+ hours of your own work. Tony offers a generous price of $5,000 dollars for the labor which includes him needing to do some fabricating to have your power-assisted braking back up and running.
Just prior to installation, Tony would be taking a trip to the autoparts store and spending around 7-8 hundred on additional stuff.
He changes over from the vacuum assist system to hydrolic assist with the help of a power steering loop.
Finally, a trip to the muffler shop. I am all about saving weght.
I think I might run a Y-Pipe off the headers into a single 4" pipe and run that back to a Hooker Maxflow muffler for the ultimate turbo-look exit, but that's just me. btw, does anyone know what the right Sanderson headers run for ?
I spent around $1,700.00 for new big blacks, rotors, pads, adaptors and bias valve and getting it all installed.
I will call Renegade tomorrow and get the numbers a little bit closer, or maybe you guys can figure out what is best added on from the LONG list included below. [upgraditus].
Allan -- Massachusetts.
./
Last edited by odurandina; 11-03-2009 at 11:37 PM. Reason: edititus
