944 Owners with LS1 swaps please post in here..

[Potomac-Greg]

Originally Posted by V2Rocket_aka944

98k LS1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1998-...item5636c6c538

I've never bought an engine, nor have I ever had one at my home, but I have to note that the "LS1-on-the-back-porch" look is a pretty big turn-off for me. Do you think they dragged it out of someplace else to get a picture, or does it "live" out on the porch?

[CPR]

For another $500 or so you can get a brand new crate LS1:

5.7 Ltr - 350 C.I.D. - GM ENGINE 2001-2004 New 89017548
Item #89017548
89017548 2001-2002 Camaro (LS1) 5.7 Liter 350CI Goodwrench Engine
MSRP: $3,988.38 Your Price: $3,272.91


OR for an additonal $200 on top of that an LS6 for:

5.7 Ltr - 350 C.I.D. - GM ENGINE 2004-2005 New 19210918
Item #19210918
19210918 5.7 Ltr (LS6)2004-2005 Cadillac/or Corvette Design Oil Pan. GOODWRENCH COMPLETE 8 CYLINDER ASSEMBLY
On Sale Now!
MSRP: $4,352.84 Your Price: $3,558.28

[tifosiman]

Hey Ron, long time no hear. How are things? Thinking about the swap for your 924S or the S2?

There's a local guy in Dayton I believe that has an LS1 swapped 944. I can't remember his name but I know he is on the Hybrids forum.

Jeremy

[OmniGLH]

Originally Posted by V2Rocket_aka944

heads up for anyone on the fence about the swap:

78k LS1 with harness on ebay, BIN 2750. no affill
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Engin...item27acb9176a

and the harness to make it manual:http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1998-...item27acd60630

98k LS1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1998-...item5636c6c538

new longblock
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevr...item414a3ed806

$2750? That sounds high. I think you can source motors for a lot less than that.

Actually I heard that you can now pick up a crate LS6 from the GM Performance catalog for ~$3k.

A good friend of mine runs an LSx-based performance shop. He can probably source a motor for you - he did for another friend who did an LS1 swap in an RX7. I think the used motor was around $1500 complete with harness. Give him a call - Nate @ Nasty Performance. 847-458-4858 (hope this is ok, he is a friend of mine but I don't gain anything from posting his info.)

[CPR]

Jim,
had a GLHS Charger....

[CameronKame]

lol nobody in this thread is even ripping on chevy swaps, I think people are just reading the last couple of pages and jumping in to throw on their opinion

It was more about the constant whining about how much the car sucks and how unbearable it is to drive because it isn't as reliable as brand new cars. (Go look on the turbo forum, he does it there too)

[V2Rocket_aka944]

Originally Posted by CPR

For another $500 or so you can get a brand new crate LS1:

5.7 Ltr - 350 C.I.D. - GM ENGINE 2001-2004 New 89017548
Item #89017548
89017548 2001-2002 Camaro (LS1) 5.7 Liter 350CI Goodwrench Engine
MSRP: $3,988.38 Your Price: $3,272.91


OR for an additonal $200 on top of that an LS6 for:

5.7 Ltr - 350 C.I.D. - GM ENGINE 2004-2005 New 19210918
Item #19210918
19210918 5.7 Ltr (LS6)2004-2005 Cadillac/or Corvette Design Oil Pan. GOODWRENCH COMPLETE 8 CYLINDER ASSEMBLY
On Sale Now!
MSRP: $4,352.84 Your Price: $3,558.28

omg where did you find these prices? lol.

[CPR]

Originally Posted by V2Rocket_aka944

omg where did you find these prices? lol.

Crate engine depot. It is where I am sourcing my tub one from.

http://www.crateenginedepot.com/stor..._ID=273&Page=3

[marky522]

Do those prices include harness? PCM? Are they setup for DBW? If so you need to source a TAC, Pedal and harness. OR get a cable TB. You could drop another $1k right there depending on your setup. The best deals i have seen have been people buying lower mileage insureance wrecks, saw a guy that bought a ass packed GTO for $2700 pulled eveything he needed and parted the rest out ended up spending less than a grand on his engine.

Mark

[CPR]

Mark,
This is just for a brand new long block. No harness ECU/PCM, etc....They do however come with a 3yr/36k or 5yr/60k full warranty

With all the graveyards locally and the popularity of these engines the other bits have been surprisingly easy and cheap to find. Of course I am used to Porsche part availability and pricing....

[odurandina]

CPR... Great work with finding these affordable crate motors !!



With the exception of the short life of the timing belt, the design of our cars is very sound.


Porsche used substandard parts that were not properly tested or redone on a number of components...

the list is long and great emotions are unleashed when we talk about it.

But this is a very special family of motorists.


How is talking about it in some way, ripping Porsche or the guys here who choose to do Porsche or LS1 builds ??


Abandoning the development of the transaxle was premature in my opinon.

The 944/968 Turbo S' were some of the best cars they had built to date. They kept the 968 Turbo S a secret.

It demonstrated the transaxle's design superiority, and dollar per dollar, it was second to none on earth at that time...


but parts went into the transaxle 4's that are clearly not up to standard with Porsche. AMC might be more like it.


How do we know this to be true ??

Because there are guys here who do the maximum of preventative maintanance on their cars, in total reverence to the Porsche marquee, and still endure an endless train of expensive repairs...

Those who simply drive the cars and take them to Jiffy Lube pay dearly.

The steering column is perhaps the most aggregeous... Safety issues are not even debatable.

The ps pumps dump toxic waste shortly after their owners spend big money replacing them... and despite chasing the problem by dumping endless amounts of steering fluid into the sumps, they just burn out anyway.

and the list goes on.



We all know the Porsche engineers are geniuses, every moment we drive the cars...


It's not a conspiracy to talk about some of these expensive, and time-consuming issues...


No one is telling you to wear it on the outside your cars... but we should be able to talk about these issues here, keep it in the family -- with the hope of finding a solution...

and then go out there and kick everyone elses rides, including all the GT3s of the Porsche World,


right in the ass.


./

[marky522]

Originally Posted by CPR

Mark,
This is just for a brand new long block. No harness ECU/PCM, etc....They do however come with a 3yr/36k or 5yr/60k full warranty

With all the graveyards locally and the popularity of these engines the other bits have been surprisingly easy and cheap to find. Of course I am used to Porsche part availability and pricing....

I knew about the warranty, I find it hard to believe that in most situations they would warranty it, I see on a regular basis excuses for not covering warranty claims. Not disagreeing but i wouldnt hold much value in the warranty personally, but on the flip side I wouldnt have an issue getting them to warranty it either... Confused yet???

With the pieces to complete the puzzle that is the crate motor, keep in mind that if you go DBW you need all the pieces from the same car, and your PCM needs to be DBW capable, the truck parts are the easiest/cheapest to get but most of the boneyards cut the harnessess up. I have $500 into a PCM/TAC/pedal/harness from a Denali and i scooped that up cause i felt it was a really good deal. But i now also have the fun of modifing the truck harness... But thats another thread all its own.

All i am trying to say is do your homework regarding all the Extra pieces you will need on top of your crate motor, does it come with accessories? If not does it come with the brackets? I assume it comes with accessories. I have spent more trying to save money pieceing together a really good deal on a LS1 longblock i got ($600) than if i had dropped $2000 on a complete pullout.

Mark

[odurandina]

I wanted to drag three posts of mine from DVC's "Cool LS build video" because

I think it is relevent to the discount Crate Motor Discussion...


and maybe CPR can chime in with what could be eliminated from the list below...


From V2Rocket:

"i met tony g at his house one time to check out his ls1 951, his car is really well done, its been swapped for a few years now and he gets something like 390whp.

for the record he says that the stock 951 radiator will outperform the RH radiator so that can save some money..."




Great work Cole and V2,


I am hardly an expert... but I wish to take part in the conversation to help get to the bottom of the cost issues...

First, to keep it simple I will stay on topic:

We should leave the suspension/brake/transaxle gear/LSD upgrades out of the conversation since it is equally desireable to do these at any time when we upgrade our cars.

We can do this work after a trip to the muffler shop.


To repeat what you guys have already said: lots of variables here... depending first with how much you choose to do in fabricating... and how much labor you choose to purchase.

But I am going to offer one possible point of view and listen to you guys critique it.


I was on the phone with Tony Garcia a couple of hours ago and we talked for about 90 minutes about some of the details of this build... First, the issue with the radiator is a simple matter, and you guys already covered that topic.


So, skip the radiator from Renegade due to its extremely high price... that being said,

-- the list of stuff that you REALLY DO NEED IS LONGER than the items Renegade sells in the basic kit...

Making 100 trips back and forth to the auto supply store, fabricating and plumbing everything in will add up fast.


Tony G. is the man. His knowledge of the transaxle supercar is way up there.

His track LS1 car is street legal and is on the order of "Nissan GTR/Chevrolet ZR1" levels of quality and durability.

Forget about having a car that leaks shit all over humanity while you're beating on it.


As Tony mentioned, you can spend as much time fabricating parts as you wish after you've purchased a basic kit...


Tony: "why fabricate anything when you can just buy it ? The money saved is barely worth the aggrivation."


The stuff you absolutely need will run from 4,500 + dollars for the bellhousing kit, radiator if you need one, clutch, wiring harness-ecm, headers, additional plumbing for PS, hydrolic assisted brakes, and to make everything CLEAN and functional...

That includes buying A LOT of the stuff that Renegade's optional parts list.

Pulling out all the old equipment, and then getting the lower driveline all done is not an easy job for most mortals like myself. Figure about 50-70+ hours of your own work. Tony offers a generous price of $5,000 dollars for the labor which includes him needing to do some fabricating to have your power-assisted braking back up and running.

Just prior to installation, Tony would be taking a trip to the autoparts store and spending around 7-8 hundred on additional stuff.

He changes over from the vacuum assist system to hydrolic assist with the help of a power steering loop.

and finally a trip to the muffler shop.


see the long list below.

[odurandina]

It was my wish to make a contribution to what this might all cost...


There are so many variables but I decided to estimate for a high-end build, where I did no work myself...



if if you go with the Renegade guys...

the parts are more expensive, but the quality is definitely there... there are of course, other vendors.

I am using Renegade for this estimate.


Unfortunately, the parts needed go well beyond their basic kit.

I have included a less-muddled, "additonal vital parts" list that follows the basic kit...


--- Complete LS Series kit for Porsche 924S/944/turbo/968, hardware and instructions...

--- Custom adapter-bellhousing complete and pre assembled with hydraulic throw out bearing, custom hydraulic hose and fittings, and mounting hardware.

--- Custom 12 inch LS Series clutch disc with Porsche center spline.

--- motor mount kit complete with uprights, billet block plates, rubber isolators, and hardware.

--- Custom LS Series road race oil pan and pick up.

--- LS Series remote oil filter mount.

--- Renegade cross member and sway bar drop kit.

--- Custom 944 to LS Series pilot bearing.

--- brake master cylinder mount and pushrod.

--- Custom ignition coil mount bracket.

--- the above parts run $2,100, [not sold individually]



additional parts that you need to make or buy:


$1,100 CUSTOM CERAMIC COATED HIGH FLOW HEADERS: High temperature polished coating inside and out.


$70 COOLANT TEMPERATURE, OIL PRESSURE SENDING UNITS: With correct VDO outputs.


$35 CUSTOM OIL PRESSURE SENDING UNIT ADAPTER


$335 HIGH PERFORMANCE STAGE-TWO YELLOW PRESSURE PLATE


$245 LS Series CUSTOM FUEL REGULATOR/FILTER/RETURN COMPLETE KIT:

With correct fittings for Porsche stock fuel lines.


$145 SWIVEL 180-DEGREE THERMOSTAT AND HOUSING: For added frame rail clearance over stock LS Series thermostat.


$130 / pr. CUSTOM BUILT POWER STEERING LINES: Cores required.


$78 [I combined 3 items]: LS Series/LT-1 RIGHT ANGLE THROTTLE BODY INTAKE BOOT: 4 inch to 3.5 inch, LS Series/LT-1 RIGHT ANGLE INTAKE BOOT: 3.5 inch to 3.5 inch, LS Series/LT-1 ALUMINUM 3.5" INTAKE TUBING


$85 LS Series TO 944 CUSTOM THROTTLE CABLE


$29 HEATER CONTROL H VALVE: The LS Series heater return loop must remain intact for the required bypass system designed into the motor. If you plan to run a heater, this type of H valve is required.


add $500-650 dollars for additional misc items, that someone like Tony G. would need to get,

especially to solve the master/power brake dilemma.


labor: figure about 50 hours

Source from salvage, or purchase the following items:


LSx crate, turn key engine with marine harness/fuel/engine management or salvage engine with:


FLYWHEEL and [pressure plate if you prefer not to use the Renegade HP plate]

GM LS Series CAMARO STARTER,

all accessories, ps, alternator, AC,

fuel rail, and intake, wiring harness, engine and fuel management control system,

Summit Racing or 944 Turbo radiator, and hoses.


I estimate the cost of an LS2, or LS3 turn key motor at anywhere from $7,500 to $9,000.


reaching for a calculator...

[CPR]

Originally Posted by marky522

I knew about the warranty, I find it hard to believe that in most situations they would warranty it, I see on a regular basis excuses for not covering warranty claims. Not disagreeing but i wouldnt hold much value in the warranty personally, but on the flip side I wouldnt have an issue getting them to warranty it either... Confused yet???

With the pieces to complete the puzzle that is the crate motor, keep in mind that if you go DBW you need all the pieces from the same car, and your PCM needs to be DBW capable, the truck parts are the easiest/cheapest to get but most of the boneyards cut the harnessess up. I have $500 into a PCM/TAC/pedal/harness from a Denali and i scooped that up cause i felt it was a really good deal. But i now also have the fun of modifing the truck harness... But thats another thread all its own.

All i am trying to say is do your homework regarding all the Extra pieces you will need on top of your crate motor, does it come with accessories? If not does it come with the brackets? I assume it comes with accessories. I have spent more trying to save money pieceing together a really good deal on a LS1 longblock i got ($600) than if i had dropped $2000 on a complete pullout.

Mark

I understand but in regards to electros I prefer to have everything new. I am using the GM Gen IV M90 DBW-WBO2-ECM kit. The bits I was referring to are accessories like AC and what not.

Here is a brief description and the list price was about 1400-1500 USD:

Our Gen IV M-90 DBW WB02 ECM utilizes the GM 87mm or 90mm drive by wire throttles. The ECM has an embedded NTK WB02 controller that can be utilized for closed loop fuel control, streamlined calibrations, and development. The package comes with a Main Wiring Harness, Fuse/Relay Box, MAP/IAT harness, fuel pump controls, electric fan controls, A/C compressor controls, alternator controls, and starter circuit. The M-90 DBW WB02 Engine Package is available with a variety of base calibrations that include LS3, LS2, LS7, L92, L76, and LY6 engines. The complete calibration is developed in house on our Superflow NSCR dyno test cell and Superflow eddy current chassis test cell. A NTK WB02 kit is available that includes a sensor and harness. The M-90 DBW WB02 ECM is completely programmable when utilizing a communications cable and software kit.

Package Includes:
- M-90 DBW WB02 ECM
- M-90 DBW WB02 Main Wiring Harness
- 38 Pin Dash Harness
- Delphi MAP/IAT Harness
- IAT Sensor
- Air Filter

Seemed like a good deal and knowing that everything is new is added insurance.