WTB: Tow hitch
02-19-2010, 02:30 AM
#16
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Ill start by saying...im neither trying to **** in the wind nor on anyone's shoes...Im just a bit of a numbers geek so I got caught up crunching the stats of this and thought id share my train of thought..a tire trailer is a no brainer......I think we can drag alot more then it looks....or then the hitch rating allows.
1991 Ford Escort pony 1.9 L (1859 cc) CVH I4, 88 hp (66 kW) 108 ft·lbf (146 N·m)
transmission MTX-75 3.42 2.14 1.45 1.03 0.77
2491#curb
Recommended hitch Curt Mfg Model: 11105
Class: Class I
GTW: 2000
TW: 200
1984 Porsche 944 150 bhp @ 5800 rpm Torque: 142.1 lb-ft. @ 3000 rpm
MANUAL TRANSMISSION GEAR RATIOS 3.600, 2.125, 1.458, 1.071, 0.729
2601# curb
recommended hitch Curt MFG Model: 11712 (rated 2000gtw 200tw) but applied to a 944,
Class: Class I
GTW: 1000
TW: 100
Uhauls enclosed 4X8 weighs 850#
5X8 weighs 900#
The seriously lower powered similarly geared 1991 escort with a similar class I hitch is rated to be able to tow the 4X8 + 1150# or the 5x8 + 1100#
Given higher power(+70%hp), similar weight(+4.4%), and comparable gearing....the only reason I can imagine that curt would derate a hitch from its stated up to 2,000 lbs. (GTW) for the 944 would be a lack of sufficiently rigid mounting...again I start to ponder some sort of towing subframe.
wonder what this weighs anyway.....
http://www.inmygarage.com/?p=1385
1991 Ford Escort pony 1.9 L (1859 cc) CVH I4, 88 hp (66 kW) 108 ft·lbf (146 N·m)
transmission MTX-75 3.42 2.14 1.45 1.03 0.77
2491#curb
Recommended hitch Curt Mfg Model: 11105
Class: Class I
GTW: 2000
TW: 200
1984 Porsche 944 150 bhp @ 5800 rpm Torque: 142.1 lb-ft. @ 3000 rpm
MANUAL TRANSMISSION GEAR RATIOS 3.600, 2.125, 1.458, 1.071, 0.729
2601# curb
recommended hitch Curt MFG Model: 11712 (rated 2000gtw 200tw) but applied to a 944,
Class: Class I
GTW: 1000
TW: 100
Uhauls enclosed 4X8 weighs 850#
5X8 weighs 900#
The seriously lower powered similarly geared 1991 escort with a similar class I hitch is rated to be able to tow the 4X8 + 1150# or the 5x8 + 1100#
Given higher power(+70%hp), similar weight(+4.4%), and comparable gearing....the only reason I can imagine that curt would derate a hitch from its stated up to 2,000 lbs. (GTW) for the 944 would be a lack of sufficiently rigid mounting...again I start to ponder some sort of towing subframe.
wonder what this weighs anyway.....
http://www.inmygarage.com/?p=1385
02-19-2010, 11:00 AM
#17
Race Director
The 944 was build to be a sports car not tow car. The fact that it can tow a small tire trailer is great, but comparing to an escort. Why? As for a 4x8 or 5x8.. the darn sail area of the trailer won't do any good.
02-19-2010, 12:55 PM
#18
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Why compare? Why not compare?
I assure you the escort was never intended as a tow vehicle either.
The whole point of the comparison was to show that the limitations on the hitch are caused by the mounting scheme being inadequate and not by a shortcoming of our vehicles.
The weights of the two vehicles are so similar...its a factor of hitch rating Id ignore in comparison
Gearing can of course play a factor.....but the differences here are minute.
The HP & torque of a 944 is superior to an escort....but its tow is 1/2 rated....vehicle power is a major factor in hitch rating.....so our rating "should" be higher...other factors aside.
The sail area of the trailer is not a factor included in the rating or DErating of a hitch.
So other then original intent, as I concede the 1984 944na I spec'd here "was built to be more like a sports car".....I see no reason other then, as Ive stated before, a lack of sufficiently rigid mounting being the source of the hitch's derated specifications.
A quick call to uhaul....they say a class I hitch on a porsche 944 would be allowed to roll with a 4X8 enclosed or 4X7 open....
so forget the image of an enclosed trailer and focus on the load weights.
Uhauls 4X7 open trailer weighs 630#...Im not sure what your trailer weighs....but that only leaves us 270# of cargo capability....on a hitch that in other applications is rated for 1000# more and since they check the manufacturer markings on the hitch which all claim 2000#gtw.... dont expect a warning other then this thread that you should not exceed the 150# to 370# respectively on a rented uhaul trailer..
If you look at the mounting instructions for the Curt hitch.....youll understand why I dont have one....Im amazed they give you 1000# rating...In its existing format with no further reinforcement...id use it for a bike rack buts thats about it
Adding a weight distributing subframe for towing seems necessary...if you are going to tow.
Far less involved a modification then say...a roll cage....I mean after all....
The 944 was built to be a SPORTY car...not a racecar
I assure you the escort was never intended as a tow vehicle either.
The whole point of the comparison was to show that the limitations on the hitch are caused by the mounting scheme being inadequate and not by a shortcoming of our vehicles.
The weights of the two vehicles are so similar...its a factor of hitch rating Id ignore in comparison
Gearing can of course play a factor.....but the differences here are minute.
The HP & torque of a 944 is superior to an escort....but its tow is 1/2 rated....vehicle power is a major factor in hitch rating.....so our rating "should" be higher...other factors aside.
The sail area of the trailer is not a factor included in the rating or DErating of a hitch.
So other then original intent, as I concede the 1984 944na I spec'd here "was built to be more like a sports car".....I see no reason other then, as Ive stated before, a lack of sufficiently rigid mounting being the source of the hitch's derated specifications.
A quick call to uhaul....they say a class I hitch on a porsche 944 would be allowed to roll with a 4X8 enclosed or 4X7 open....
so forget the image of an enclosed trailer and focus on the load weights.
Uhauls 4X7 open trailer weighs 630#...Im not sure what your trailer weighs....but that only leaves us 270# of cargo capability....on a hitch that in other applications is rated for 1000# more and since they check the manufacturer markings on the hitch which all claim 2000#gtw.... dont expect a warning other then this thread that you should not exceed the 150# to 370# respectively on a rented uhaul trailer..
If you look at the mounting instructions for the Curt hitch.....youll understand why I dont have one....Im amazed they give you 1000# rating...In its existing format with no further reinforcement...id use it for a bike rack buts thats about it
Adding a weight distributing subframe for towing seems necessary...if you are going to tow.
Far less involved a modification then say...a roll cage....I mean after all....
The 944 was built to be a SPORTY car...not a racecar
Last edited by techartisan; 02-19-2010 at 01:13 PM.
02-19-2010, 03:03 PM
#19
Race Director
what is the point of trying to tow 4x8 trailer behind a 944 in the first place.
It has some purpose to tow tire trailer, but carrying a load of crap in 4x8 trailer? And a 4x8 from U-haul. Who flipping cares!
Look a 944 will tow a tire trailer with no problems. As for the hitch... experience says bolted to the bumper is fine. Why? you keep the weight down that is why. Why even consider max tow rating on a 944 (which could be a factory thing vs hitch thing) in the first place. If you need to tow a 4x8 don't use a 944. Sure you might be able to get by, but it sucks. As for what the escort can do.. Who cars.
If you really want to talk tow raitings it actually is only partially relate to hp/torque. The other factors that come into play are final drive ratio, rear suspension, brakes, engine cooling and tranny cooling. Now does a 91 escort have a beam rear axle? If so I bet it would have bigger tow rating. Plus what aobut GVWR and GCWR and rear axle load rating. All these factors come in as well.
The 944 was never designed to carry heavy loads or even 4 full size people as such strapping 2k to trailer is not is it design window. The escort was designed to carry 4 people and probably has a higher payload and GVWR. Now the fact it has a weaker motor is not relevat.
Truth is I know a few things about towing and tow ratings. You forget that I need to tow my race car. So have a tow vehicle and 24 ft enclosed trailer and have been towing my race car around for almost 10 years with different trailers and tow vehicles.
BTW... I towed a 5x8 Uhaul form Boston to Phoenix about 15 years ago. I did it with 4 cylinder making 134 bhp, 2.4L displacement, 5spd manual. I never checke the gearing, but it turned about the same RPM at speed as the 944. Any 944 has more hp and more displacement that this thing. I had no issues (except for heat wind on I-40 in New Mexico that due to sail area forced me into 4th.) towing a trailer with this 2 seater 4 cylinder, but would never try with a 944.
That was 2wd Nissan pick-up truck...
It has some purpose to tow tire trailer, but carrying a load of crap in 4x8 trailer? And a 4x8 from U-haul. Who flipping cares!
Look a 944 will tow a tire trailer with no problems. As for the hitch... experience says bolted to the bumper is fine. Why? you keep the weight down that is why. Why even consider max tow rating on a 944 (which could be a factory thing vs hitch thing) in the first place. If you need to tow a 4x8 don't use a 944. Sure you might be able to get by, but it sucks. As for what the escort can do.. Who cars.
If you really want to talk tow raitings it actually is only partially relate to hp/torque. The other factors that come into play are final drive ratio, rear suspension, brakes, engine cooling and tranny cooling. Now does a 91 escort have a beam rear axle? If so I bet it would have bigger tow rating. Plus what aobut GVWR and GCWR and rear axle load rating. All these factors come in as well.
The 944 was never designed to carry heavy loads or even 4 full size people as such strapping 2k to trailer is not is it design window. The escort was designed to carry 4 people and probably has a higher payload and GVWR. Now the fact it has a weaker motor is not relevat.
Truth is I know a few things about towing and tow ratings. You forget that I need to tow my race car. So have a tow vehicle and 24 ft enclosed trailer and have been towing my race car around for almost 10 years with different trailers and tow vehicles.
BTW... I towed a 5x8 Uhaul form Boston to Phoenix about 15 years ago. I did it with 4 cylinder making 134 bhp, 2.4L displacement, 5spd manual. I never checke the gearing, but it turned about the same RPM at speed as the 944. Any 944 has more hp and more displacement that this thing. I had no issues (except for heat wind on I-40 in New Mexico that due to sail area forced me into 4th.) towing a trailer with this 2 seater 4 cylinder, but would never try with a 944.
That was 2wd Nissan pick-up truck...
02-19-2010, 09:22 PM
#20
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Im obviously being misread...
Let me try to clear a few things up...
I wont tow anything with a 944 ever because the hitch rating sucks. I dont see it as being feasable without "some sort of towing subframe."
To answer your first question....
"what is the point of trying to tow 4x8 trailer behind a 944 in the first place."
If you tow anything behind a 944 then a 4X8 trailer that nearly meets the GTW is a good example of capability as well as a nice test of your hitches mounting....since drilling some holes and bolting through body is sketchy IMHO.
"And a 4x8 from U-haul. Who flipping cares!"
Uhauls site lists a variety of trailers, their GVW, and a recommendation of load suitability based on hitch rating......it seemed like a good reference that anyone could quickly verify should they be so inclined. Its a bit odd how offended you are by Uhaul...bad experience?
"As for what the escort can do.. Who cares"
To meter a thing one must have a basis of comparison. The 1991 ford escort, being a car of comparable size, weight, gearing...
sorry I omitted the final drive ratios....should have known someone would catch that lol
1984 944na 3.89 right?
1991 escort pony 3.82
the first year with independent rear suspension...a major point in my choice to use it as a comp.
Ill assume the porsche suspension to be far beefier as the escort is FWD....and is not carrying a transaxle in rear...so ill skip that.
Ill assume that no one would argue that a ford escorts brakes could possibly be more suitable....I could do the whole disk diameter to pad area multiplied by force....but seriously....lets skip it...the porsche has much better brakes.
Engine and tranny cooling....I cant even imagine the calculations of airflow, thermal dispersion area, etc etc....but Ill assume that porsche...would top the 'scort in these realms as well.
So hopefully at this point "the fact it has a weaker motor is" relevant.....as Ive established that all other factors thus far are either close....or clearly a win for the porsche.
944
gvwr 3418
escort
gvwr 3494
I dont have axle loads on either car here...and cant say I care enough to look them up...
110# difference between the two cars curb weight.....and 76# difference in their GVWR....will have to be enough for me.......
My point from the beginning has been that rather then just plate bolting through the body.....it is not unreasonable to assume, not only the ability to match the performance of a ford escort in towing, which would be a reasonable expectation of any car, but exceed it with proper reinforced mounting....and further to make clear note to anyone adding a hitch in the "standard manner" per CurtMfg for the 944 that the rating of the hitch far exceeds the rating allowed for our cars AS RECOMMENDED....so disaster may ensue should appropriate caution not be taken.
"Truth is I know a few things about towing and tow ratings. You forget that I need to tow my race car. "
Truth is I neither considered your experience in towing, nor that there was some need to.
In fact, I hadnt considered that there was any personal element to this thread at all until it became clear to me that you were reading some offense into my posts..Im sorry for whatever sensitivity I have touched...I assure you it wasnt my intent.
I agreed with your assessment that a tire trailer was a no brainer...
on a standard hitch install....
and Ill bump it by saying that the standard hitch mounting is so poor that you are likely no worse off bolting straight to the bumper if the bumper struts can handle the "pulling forces" as well as they do the "pushing ones"
But shy of someone producing radically different rear axle loads for these two vehicles.....I see no justification of an assumption that the 944 is less capable then a 1991 ford escort pony.....at anything...well except maybe fuel economy LOL. Until I see these figures....Ill assume that proper towing is outside of the porsche's abilities due only to poor mounting and even poorer motivation to fabricate a load distributing hitch system for a car with so little call to exercise the ability.
Let me try to clear a few things up...
I wont tow anything with a 944 ever because the hitch rating sucks. I dont see it as being feasable without "some sort of towing subframe."
To answer your first question....
"what is the point of trying to tow 4x8 trailer behind a 944 in the first place."
If you tow anything behind a 944 then a 4X8 trailer that nearly meets the GTW is a good example of capability as well as a nice test of your hitches mounting....since drilling some holes and bolting through body is sketchy IMHO.
"And a 4x8 from U-haul. Who flipping cares!"
Uhauls site lists a variety of trailers, their GVW, and a recommendation of load suitability based on hitch rating......it seemed like a good reference that anyone could quickly verify should they be so inclined. Its a bit odd how offended you are by Uhaul...bad experience?
"As for what the escort can do.. Who cares"
To meter a thing one must have a basis of comparison. The 1991 ford escort, being a car of comparable size, weight, gearing...
sorry I omitted the final drive ratios....should have known someone would catch that lol
1984 944na 3.89 right?
1991 escort pony 3.82
the first year with independent rear suspension...a major point in my choice to use it as a comp.
Ill assume the porsche suspension to be far beefier as the escort is FWD....and is not carrying a transaxle in rear...so ill skip that.
Ill assume that no one would argue that a ford escorts brakes could possibly be more suitable....I could do the whole disk diameter to pad area multiplied by force....but seriously....lets skip it...the porsche has much better brakes.
Engine and tranny cooling....I cant even imagine the calculations of airflow, thermal dispersion area, etc etc....but Ill assume that porsche...would top the 'scort in these realms as well.
So hopefully at this point "the fact it has a weaker motor is" relevant.....as Ive established that all other factors thus far are either close....or clearly a win for the porsche.
944
gvwr 3418
escort
gvwr 3494
I dont have axle loads on either car here...and cant say I care enough to look them up...
110# difference between the two cars curb weight.....and 76# difference in their GVWR....will have to be enough for me.......
My point from the beginning has been that rather then just plate bolting through the body.....it is not unreasonable to assume, not only the ability to match the performance of a ford escort in towing, which would be a reasonable expectation of any car, but exceed it with proper reinforced mounting....and further to make clear note to anyone adding a hitch in the "standard manner" per CurtMfg for the 944 that the rating of the hitch far exceeds the rating allowed for our cars AS RECOMMENDED....so disaster may ensue should appropriate caution not be taken.
"Truth is I know a few things about towing and tow ratings. You forget that I need to tow my race car. "
Truth is I neither considered your experience in towing, nor that there was some need to.
In fact, I hadnt considered that there was any personal element to this thread at all until it became clear to me that you were reading some offense into my posts..Im sorry for whatever sensitivity I have touched...I assure you it wasnt my intent.
I agreed with your assessment that a tire trailer was a no brainer...
on a standard hitch install....
and Ill bump it by saying that the standard hitch mounting is so poor that you are likely no worse off bolting straight to the bumper if the bumper struts can handle the "pulling forces" as well as they do the "pushing ones"
But shy of someone producing radically different rear axle loads for these two vehicles.....I see no justification of an assumption that the 944 is less capable then a 1991 ford escort pony.....at anything...well except maybe fuel economy LOL. Until I see these figures....Ill assume that proper towing is outside of the porsche's abilities due only to poor mounting and even poorer motivation to fabricate a load distributing hitch system for a car with so little call to exercise the ability.
03-03-2010, 10:49 PM
#21
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Just noticed this thread while searching for some info on track tires......techartisan...you apparently don't attend many track events.
Every one I have ever been to has had at least one and generally more than one 944 with a tire trailer.
I appreciate that you are a numbers guy...but I think you're over-working your brain on this.
small trailer with tires and a tool box is just fine for a 944.
Every one I have ever been to has had at least one and generally more than one 944 with a tire trailer.
I appreciate that you are a numbers guy...but I think you're over-working your brain on this.
small trailer with tires and a tool box is just fine for a 944.
03-09-2010, 09:00 PM
#24
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my point was simply that the hitch has a listed rating printed on deceptively low for our cars actual specified applied rating. The wrong trailer can approach this rating unloaded.
Im not advocating towing nor am I denying the possibility of light towing...Im just and have just been saying
1. the power is more then there to tow far more then a tire trailer the weakness is the hitch
2. the power is sufficient that space wind issues and drag you should tow a tire trailer and more easily if the hitch holds.
3. any additional effort to increase the rigidity of the mount would be advised and would theoretically increase your safe load level...the tongue load as rated is seriously wanting.
Im not advocating towing nor am I denying the possibility of light towing...Im just and have just been saying
1. the power is more then there to tow far more then a tire trailer the weakness is the hitch
2. the power is sufficient that space wind issues and drag you should tow a tire trailer and more easily if the hitch holds.
3. any additional effort to increase the rigidity of the mount would be advised and would theoretically increase your safe load level...the tongue load as rated is seriously wanting.
03-10-2010, 01:24 PM
#25
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Ok, I didn't read the whole post. I stopped once it started growing to urinating contest length.
I think you should go ahead and set up your 944 to tow the 4x8. Damn the naysayers....install a equalizer hitch, a brake controller, those big side mirror extensions, and a WIDE TURNS bumper sticker and say I told you so. (that was all sarcasm)
If you were towing a 4x8 with an Escort, it must have been loaded with pillows or marshmallows. (more sarcasm)
Seriously though, if it's your ONLY option, I get needing to make it work. But if it's to prove some point, your kind of chasing a white whale. The car has it's limit, no matter what the math says. According to certain math, my car should do 165 mph. I used to work at U-Haul a long time ago, we'd hook trailers up to cars that said they were rated ok, but they were near bottomed out when leaving the lot empty.
I think you should go ahead and set up your 944 to tow the 4x8. Damn the naysayers....install a equalizer hitch, a brake controller, those big side mirror extensions, and a WIDE TURNS bumper sticker and say I told you so. (that was all sarcasm)
If you were towing a 4x8 with an Escort, it must have been loaded with pillows or marshmallows. (more sarcasm)
Seriously though, if it's your ONLY option, I get needing to make it work. But if it's to prove some point, your kind of chasing a white whale. The car has it's limit, no matter what the math says. According to certain math, my car should do 165 mph. I used to work at U-Haul a long time ago, we'd hook trailers up to cars that said they were rated ok, but they were near bottomed out when leaving the lot empty.
03-10-2010, 09:25 PM
#26
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Who says you can't tow with a 944?
I towed it a whole 3 ft with this setup the trailer wasn't empty, steel scrap... that's all I was willing to risk.
I towed it a whole 3 ft with this setup the trailer wasn't empty, steel scrap... that's all I was willing to risk.
Last edited by ejsaenz; 03-10-2010 at 10:34 PM.
03-10-2010, 11:52 PM
#27
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Just ordered one, we'll see what it looks like when it arrives.
I am thinking of trying one to carry a hitch bike rack. I'm a little worried about the TW of 100 since all of the weight is on the hitch with the bike carrier. I will have to weigh it but with 1 or 2 racing bikes and a lighter rack it shouldn't add up to more than 100 Lbs.
