Porsche will reintroduce 944 in 2005!
11-13-2002, 11:45 AM
#17
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[quote]Originally posted by M758:
<strong>...Honestly the Boxster should replace the 996 as the Sporting flagship with 996 being more closely linked the GT car breeding of the 928...</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> I can't fit my family in a Boxster. Even if there are small, those rear seats work in making the 911 a family car.
<strong>...Honestly the Boxster should replace the 996 as the Sporting flagship with 996 being more closely linked the GT car breeding of the 928...</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> I can't fit my family in a Boxster. Even if there are small, those rear seats work in making the 911 a family car.
11-13-2002, 12:37 PM
#18
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I have the 1.8T in my Scirocco putting nearly 250 ft lbs. to the wheels at 3800 rpm and a little over 270 WHP. There is a guy in Texas that has been pushing and pushing his in his Golf and recently threw the #3 rod running 26.5 psi and a 65 shot- 465 WHP! 
Stock from oil pan to valve cover! It's definatley a stout motor.
The point may be moot, however, since the 1.8T is supposed to be replaced by a 2 liter 16V turbo with direct injection. I would tend to agree with you guys, and would at least like to see a larger displacement engine in a sports car the weighs ~2700 Lbs. At least it would have more torque before the boost comes on.
Stock from oil pan to valve cover! It's definatley a stout motor.The point may be moot, however, since the 1.8T is supposed to be replaced by a 2 liter 16V turbo with direct injection. I would tend to agree with you guys, and would at least like to see a larger displacement engine in a sports car the weighs ~2700 Lbs. At least it would have more torque before the boost comes on.
11-13-2002, 12:44 PM
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After seeing the front ferrari at the Bayside Expo this weekend, I was thinking Porsche is definately going to do another 944. I am kind of psyched at the 1.8 idea .. unlike the rest of you. An engine I know, and love. Even the difference in power in the under-powered TT .. 180 to 225 .. a turbo upgrade to a slightly larger turbo .. come on .. if Porsche doesn't do it .. others will .. give it a slightly larger than 45hp boost. I think it could be great. Although .. I do like the 6 idea better. No replacement for cubic displacement .. or torque
11-13-2002, 12:54 PM
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well guys, we all know this is going to be a very heated debate, so i figured i would post some thoughts as well.
i think it is a good idea for porsche to finally have a new "entry level" model. however, if they make the same mistakes they made in the past, it isn't better for anyone. we have all heard the complaints that the 924/944 series aren't real porsches. "it's just a bastard vw" was the last one i heard. "what you have is a car designed by porsche and built by everyone else." i say, "maybe so, but it will still whip your honda's *** and the lines have been copied by EVERY japanese company currently in existence, and oh yeah, it still looks fresh 15 years later."
the 1.8t is a fun engine, i have driven a couple myself. but it is turned out in mass numbers and it would be a shame if porsche does go through with the 948 just to slap a vw/audi powerplant in there. imagine yourself in a row full of audis and vw's just to open the hood of your porsche and the only difference is that your engine is pointing the proper direction. scary.
i am a purist. give us a 6 or give us something new - from porsche. hell, update the "old" shortblock. if tuners can get 300 horse out of a na 2.5l, porsche themselves better be able to. and as for hp, i would rather have torque. horsepower wins buyers, torque wins races.
porsche seems to be going through an identity crisis. stop racing to make the cayenne. hope for good sales from the cayenne to start racing. shove the cayenne's 8 in the ***-end of the 996 and make a hybrid 911 grand tourer. molest the 996 until it shares no history with the original 911. make a new "affordable" porsche for the masses with other peoples parts. engineer these new models so that they are better in every way than the 911, but don't let the populus have them. create more inter-model bitching and fueding by purists and enthusiasts who know every reason why their car is "real" and the others are not. lump all the yuppies that run out to buy a boxster for no obvious reason other than the fact that it has a porsche crest on it but they sure look cool driving to barnes & nobles. what do you have? one of the greatest sports car manufacturers falling apart to make the masses happy. growth is good, profit is fantastic, but stay true to the original philosophy. give us cars with a purpose.
don't forget, estimated "entry level prices" are usually way low. look at the new z car. when first prototyped, the car was supposed to be available at the 25,000 mark. now, to get the car with at least a few goodies, you are up over 30,000. it will happen to the 948 as well. just like the boxster, the 996, and soon the cayenne.
remember, this is just my opinion. it is in no way meant to offend any user of this group of people or any other. we all share a common bond. the fanatical love of our p-cars, what ever number might be plastered on our owner's manual.
i think it is a good idea for porsche to finally have a new "entry level" model. however, if they make the same mistakes they made in the past, it isn't better for anyone. we have all heard the complaints that the 924/944 series aren't real porsches. "it's just a bastard vw" was the last one i heard. "what you have is a car designed by porsche and built by everyone else." i say, "maybe so, but it will still whip your honda's *** and the lines have been copied by EVERY japanese company currently in existence, and oh yeah, it still looks fresh 15 years later."
the 1.8t is a fun engine, i have driven a couple myself. but it is turned out in mass numbers and it would be a shame if porsche does go through with the 948 just to slap a vw/audi powerplant in there. imagine yourself in a row full of audis and vw's just to open the hood of your porsche and the only difference is that your engine is pointing the proper direction. scary.
i am a purist. give us a 6 or give us something new - from porsche. hell, update the "old" shortblock. if tuners can get 300 horse out of a na 2.5l, porsche themselves better be able to. and as for hp, i would rather have torque. horsepower wins buyers, torque wins races.
porsche seems to be going through an identity crisis. stop racing to make the cayenne. hope for good sales from the cayenne to start racing. shove the cayenne's 8 in the ***-end of the 996 and make a hybrid 911 grand tourer. molest the 996 until it shares no history with the original 911. make a new "affordable" porsche for the masses with other peoples parts. engineer these new models so that they are better in every way than the 911, but don't let the populus have them. create more inter-model bitching and fueding by purists and enthusiasts who know every reason why their car is "real" and the others are not. lump all the yuppies that run out to buy a boxster for no obvious reason other than the fact that it has a porsche crest on it but they sure look cool driving to barnes & nobles. what do you have? one of the greatest sports car manufacturers falling apart to make the masses happy. growth is good, profit is fantastic, but stay true to the original philosophy. give us cars with a purpose.
don't forget, estimated "entry level prices" are usually way low. look at the new z car. when first prototyped, the car was supposed to be available at the 25,000 mark. now, to get the car with at least a few goodies, you are up over 30,000. it will happen to the 948 as well. just like the boxster, the 996, and soon the cayenne.
remember, this is just my opinion. it is in no way meant to offend any user of this group of people or any other. we all share a common bond. the fanatical love of our p-cars, what ever number might be plastered on our owner's manual.
11-13-2002, 01:34 PM
#21
To do an "entry level car" in Europe you have to go below 2 liters for tax purposes. German engineers did not just pull 1.8 out of a hat - notice that Volvo has a 1.9 liter engine.
11-13-2002, 01:55 PM
#23
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My 944 S2 cab is a Porsche, because it has a Porsche engine, essentially 1/2 of a 928 block. Check this site for some future updates.
<a href="http://www.sportscartesting.com/news/porsche/id503/pg2431" target="_blank">http://www.sportscartesting.com/news/porsche/id503/pg2431</a>
<a href="http://www.sportscartesting.com/news/porsche/id503/pg2431" target="_blank">http://www.sportscartesting.com/news/porsche/id503/pg2431</a>
11-13-2002, 02:09 PM
#24
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[quote]Originally posted by 944 Hooligan:
<strong>...the car was supposed to be available at the 25,000 mark. now, to get the car with at least a few goodies, you are up over 30,000...</strong><hr></blockquote>
MSRP - 26,269.00 with a 6 speed. Engine is the same in all levels of configuration - 3.5L V-6 (Est. 287 hp @ 6,200 rpm / 274 lb-ft @ 4,800 rpm)
Adding goodies will still keep you under the 30k mark. Only when you go to the Track Model 6MT with the Brembo brakes and 18" light weight wheels, front and rear spoilers, etc do you go over 30k... I will stop now with all this on the 350Z before I am sent to the Z website... <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />
But, yes. I get your point.
<strong>...the car was supposed to be available at the 25,000 mark. now, to get the car with at least a few goodies, you are up over 30,000...</strong><hr></blockquote>
MSRP - 26,269.00 with a 6 speed. Engine is the same in all levels of configuration - 3.5L V-6 (Est. 287 hp @ 6,200 rpm / 274 lb-ft @ 4,800 rpm)
Adding goodies will still keep you under the 30k mark. Only when you go to the Track Model 6MT with the Brembo brakes and 18" light weight wheels, front and rear spoilers, etc do you go over 30k... I will stop now with all this on the 350Z before I am sent to the Z website... <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> But, yes. I get your point.
11-13-2002, 02:14 PM
#25
Race Director
Honestly the 1.8T motor has plenty of low end torque.
My GTI has 150 hp and 158 ftlbs of torque from 2000rpm. This is MORE than a 2.5l 944 NA. Honestly it has much better passing power at 60 mph in 5th than my 944 Turbo S which i would have to shift to 4th.
Sure some of it is gearing the rest is that turbo spools up FAST...
You guys are right about cost increases, but rememeber that if the 948 is to be an entry level car then is MUST be cheaper than the boxster. Therefore either the Boxster goes up or the 948 stays in the same price range.
My only concern is weight!!!
Keep the weight down and the car will be fun. Let the weight get to 3000lbs and you will have a DOG...
Remember why the 951 is popular in our circles...
Low Cost and Tuneability.
Well 1.8T motor is legend for tunabilty in the VW/Audi Circles and is often perfered over the 2.8L VR6 or 2.8 v6 Audi motors due to lower weight and increased power potential. Don't forget all the go fast parts developed for those 1.8T applications will probably be avalible for the 948.
My GTI has 150 hp and 158 ftlbs of torque from 2000rpm. This is MORE than a 2.5l 944 NA. Honestly it has much better passing power at 60 mph in 5th than my 944 Turbo S which i would have to shift to 4th.
Sure some of it is gearing the rest is that turbo spools up FAST...
You guys are right about cost increases, but rememeber that if the 948 is to be an entry level car then is MUST be cheaper than the boxster. Therefore either the Boxster goes up or the 948 stays in the same price range.
My only concern is weight!!!
Keep the weight down and the car will be fun. Let the weight get to 3000lbs and you will have a DOG...
Remember why the 951 is popular in our circles...
Low Cost and Tuneability.
Well 1.8T motor is legend for tunabilty in the VW/Audi Circles and is often perfered over the 2.8L VR6 or 2.8 v6 Audi motors due to lower weight and increased power potential. Don't forget all the go fast parts developed for those 1.8T applications will probably be avalible for the 948.
11-13-2002, 02:29 PM
#26
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For the record I can't believe that Porsche has plans for a new line beyond the new Grand Tourer (928 replacement) to compete with Audi, BMW, Jag, etc. If they were, then using the 1.8T would make alot of financial and engineering sense. Extreme cost saving on developent, minimize the potential costs of new engine break in, and use an established plant with plentiful supplies. Savings of several thousand $ per car.
11-13-2002, 02:32 PM
#27
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i thought porsche had an entry level car, it's called the boxster. seems to me that they're leaping through hoops to throw more cars on the market recently, you go from a 2 model company (911, boxster) then ok, add an suv for 3, now they're throwing 2 more cars in there(948, 982 whatever)? so they've increased the size of their model line by 250% in a period of like 3 years? too much growth results in to little thought about what you're putting together.
thought i can't argue the 1.8T is a fine engine, i could deal with it not being in every vw, audi and now porsche on the market. come up with something new, the engine used to be what made the porsche...
and i'd rather drive a 10 year old audi 200 20 valve tq than a TT, but that's just my opinion.
just my thoughts here, no offense to anyone who owns a 1.8T in any form
thought i can't argue the 1.8T is a fine engine, i could deal with it not being in every vw, audi and now porsche on the market. come up with something new, the engine used to be what made the porsche...
and i'd rather drive a 10 year old audi 200 20 valve tq than a TT, but that's just my opinion.
just my thoughts here, no offense to anyone who owns a 1.8T in any form
11-13-2002, 02:43 PM
#28
Race Director
Hmm,
Lets thing from a Marketing Perspective
Right Now
Boxster/Boxster S
Cost 42K to 60K Typical
996 (base & variatants)
$70k to 90K
996 Turbo & GT2
$100-170k
Carrera GT $300k
Cayenne & Turbo
60-125K
Looks like room in the 30-45K area..
Now I have heard about 5 Porsche Lines what could those 5 be
1) Boxster
2) 911
3) Cayenne
4) 928 style GT car???
5) 944 Style entry level car??
Seems possible...
Also could this be an attempt to capture the top end of "Euro Tuner Market?"
VW is planning a 232 hp VW Golf called he RS32? Cost is estimated at 28K+ ???
Audi does not have a TRUE sports car (TT is Nice car but FWD in origins) Neither does VW...
Is the Porsche 948 really intended to be what Guy with GTI that wants to step-up too???
With all of the Boxster girls car comments is the 948 supposed to be the Young male cheap go fast entry level Porsche coupe where the Entry Boxster is more of a "image" car with potential.
Heck with a sub 2 liter motor they can go to WRC with it.
Understand how such a car "Fits into the Porsche marketing umbrella" and we can pretty much determine if it will happen and what it will look like.
Guys dump your enthusaiust and Porsche purist hat and put on you "Business" hat and we can figure this one out. FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lets thing from a Marketing Perspective
Right Now
Boxster/Boxster S
Cost 42K to 60K Typical
996 (base & variatants)
$70k to 90K
996 Turbo & GT2
$100-170k
Carrera GT $300k
Cayenne & Turbo
60-125K
Looks like room in the 30-45K area..
Now I have heard about 5 Porsche Lines what could those 5 be
1) Boxster
2) 911
3) Cayenne
4) 928 style GT car???
5) 944 Style entry level car??
Seems possible...
Also could this be an attempt to capture the top end of "Euro Tuner Market?"
VW is planning a 232 hp VW Golf called he RS32? Cost is estimated at 28K+ ???
Audi does not have a TRUE sports car (TT is Nice car but FWD in origins) Neither does VW...
Is the Porsche 948 really intended to be what Guy with GTI that wants to step-up too???
With all of the Boxster girls car comments is the 948 supposed to be the Young male cheap go fast entry level Porsche coupe where the Entry Boxster is more of a "image" car with potential.
Heck with a sub 2 liter motor they can go to WRC with it.
Understand how such a car "Fits into the Porsche marketing umbrella" and we can pretty much determine if it will happen and what it will look like.
Guys dump your enthusaiust and Porsche purist hat and put on you "Business" hat and we can figure this one out. FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11-13-2002, 03:16 PM
#29
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following the money doesn't lead to better products for us. it leads to shortcuts to beat the jones' to the quick sale for those that are already at the dealership with checkbooks in hand, waiting to get their tails in a "cheap" porsche.
look at the cayenne. isn't it starting at around $65 or $70k? funny thing is you can get the supposedly better vw toureg for half the money.
which, by the way, is where my money would go. i don't want a porsche or performance suv. IT IS A GROCERY GETTER, not a sports-performance vehicle. besides that, the vw/audi fit and finish is, i am sorry to say, catching up to, if not surpassing porsche. i have been in the lemans edition tt and the boxster s, the tt is much more beautiful to the touch, and quite cheaper.
just my opinion.
look at the cayenne. isn't it starting at around $65 or $70k? funny thing is you can get the supposedly better vw toureg for half the money.
which, by the way, is where my money would go. i don't want a porsche or performance suv. IT IS A GROCERY GETTER, not a sports-performance vehicle. besides that, the vw/audi fit and finish is, i am sorry to say, catching up to, if not surpassing porsche. i have been in the lemans edition tt and the boxster s, the tt is much more beautiful to the touch, and quite cheaper.
just my opinion.
11-13-2002, 03:43 PM
#30
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by 944 Hooligan:
<strong>following the money doesn't lead to better products for us. </strong><hr></blockquote>
True Indeed. However given the Porsche's Current managment it is the trend and will be out best way to figure if this entire topic is truth or just rumor.
<strong>following the money doesn't lead to better products for us. </strong><hr></blockquote>
True Indeed. However given the Porsche's Current managment it is the trend and will be out best way to figure if this entire topic is truth or just rumor.