NS_Carguy

hello all
so I bought a 944 this summer and i totally love the car .
The problem is now that I own Porsche , i seem to have this unexpected desire to own more .
I have been haunting the classifieds and finding a few project cars i am semi interested in , I just about bought a boxter on ebay last week , but the shipping costs blew the budget on it
I was never a big fan of the 928 , however since i got the 944 , I have been learning a bit more about them , and they are starting to grow on me .

Here are some questions , using the 944 as a base line for comparison
- how hard are they to work on ?
- any known failure points to be aware of or look out for .
- how many miles is too many ? the 944 if well maintained seem to go for ever , there are lots with over 250k miles on them .I would not buy one with than many miles on it , but knowing that , buying a 944 with 150k on it does not scare me away .
- are there any years which are best avoided ?
- were there any significantly years where the styling or engineering changed dramatically , I am thinking of the 85.1 and 85.5 944 where there is a fairly substantial change in the car , anything like that in the 928 line ?
- how are parts availability and costs ? the 944 surprisingly has good aftermarket support and the parts costs and inline with other parts for other cars , with some minor exceptions .
the only issue i have found on parts , is not availability , but in the lag time as parts need to be ordered in and that takes 2 weeks , but cost has not been an issue.
- anything else I should be aware of ?

Mrmerlin

He welcome to the 928 forum,
This to answer your last question.
I would suggest you start reading the FAQ section at the top of the page before asking questions,
as most of them will be answered and this info will save you money when making a 928 purchase.
Merry Christmas!

Wisconsin Joe

Welcome.

First off, as MrMerlin suggested, read the "New Visitor" sticky. Then read it again. Common issues are covered.

Generally, there are 4 'different' US cars (Euro cars are a bit different):
OB - 78-79. 16v motor. No spoilers, CIS injection.
80-84 - 16v motor, L-jet injection. Some have spoilers, some don't.
85 - 86 Commonly called the "S3". 32v motor, along with LH 2.2 injection (Hotwire MAF). but original styling. 86.5 have upgraded brakes and suspension that came on the S4.
87- 91 - S4. 32v motor with a different intake. Restyled bumpers, bumper lights and wing. 89 saw the intro of the GT.
93-95 GTS.

The appearance only changed in 87. Engines underwent upgrades in 80, 85, 87 and 93. Brakes and suspension were upgraded in 87. Brakes were a bit upgraded in 83 (maybe?).

No one year is "better" than another. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages. Those are personal preferences and choices.

Miles are similar to a 944. If properly taken care of, they can last for a long, long time.

How hard to work on?
Not terribly. Some stuff can be a bit of a pain. Access to some stuff is...

Limited.

However, there are some really excellent writeups on most of the common repairs. If you have some mechanical knowledge and experience, a decent set of tools and a willingness to ask for help when needed, you can get through most jobs. The knowledge on this forum is complete. While no one person knows everything, there is someone who can answer any question you might ask. Ask nicely, follow instructions on what to "check and come back with the results", say "thank you" and follow up with results.

Parts are not a problem. We have a few very dedicated vendors who go the "extra mile" to make available just about everything. There are a few odds and ends that are NLA (S3 intake tubes, ABS sensors). But most of the parts are just a phone call away.
Some stuff isn't cheap, but it's a Porsche.

They are easy cars to fall in love with. Fast and comfortable, reliable when properly maintained, fairly unique (more than a 944), they have a special "something" that defies definition. There's a recent thread on it:
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...8-928-joy.html

Personally, I started with a 944, got a 928 about 5 years ago, got a Cayenne not quite 3 years ago...

Beware. It's not an easy condition to live with. Not cheap either.

But it's LOTS of fun.

ammonman

To quote MrMerlin " You have to WANT to drive a 928.". Once well sorted they are an amazing car. Getting there can try the patience of Job.

Mike

NS_Carguy

well sort of , what I have is a notion that a 928 might be a good pick for a project . I already have a well sorted 944 N/A and am thinking more along the lines of what to buy next with the thought that the next purchase will be a project . I am not fully committed to the project idea yet but that seems to be where I am leaning . Before buying the 944 the 928 was not even on the radar of cars I wanted , but in researching the 944 the 928 keeps popping in here and there and I it is growing on me . The 944 has been a very pleasant surprise , it is easy to work on , the forum support is amazing , free download of the factory shop manuals , parts are easy to come by and affordable for the most part if you don't mind waiting for them to come in the mail I could not be happier with the car . I am trying to get a gauge on the 928 and on a high level are they similar to the 944 in that respect , I have read about half of the info in the FAQ so far , and what I am getting is that they are a far more technical car than the 944 and seem to be prone to electrical issues , mechanically reliable if maintained but the electrics are the cars Achilles heal .
They can be had at fairly good prices still which for a project is what I want . although in my area they don't seem to pop up for sale that often which will probably mean a trip to the US to pick one up but once over the boarder they seem plenty-full enough . Other cars on the list would be another 944 , possibly a boxter or a C4 corvette .

skpyle

Hello NS_Carguy!

Please listen to me very carefully: A 928 may be cheap to buy, but she sure as hell is not cheap to maintain or work on. Parts are plentiful from a die hard group of suppliers, but they are not cheap. This is not sour grapes talking. I have a nice 928(that I took apart). She has good points and bad points. I am addressing many of the common issues that ail a 928. I am in over $25,000, including purchase price. I am small potatoes in the 928 world. Sure, corners can be cut. However, to do it right, takes money, and commitment.

I am in no way trying to scare you off. I just want you to be aware of the financial commitment that a 928 requires. A 928 is NOT a 944. They are related in that they are both transaxle cars. However, a 944 may be affordable. A 928 never is. A common saying is that "I am $10,000 away from a $5,000 928." Many a hopeful 928 project has been started with a cheap buy-in, only to be crushed under the reality of the cost of needed repairs. A sort of common rule/theme/whatever is that a decent condition 928 will usually need around $5000 right off the bat to make it safe and reliable. Some more, some less. "Project 928's"...definitely more.

Having said that, if you want a 928, Welcome! However, make sure that you WANT a 928. Please take the advice of others and pore over the FAQ thread, and do further research.

Regardless of what you do, Good Luck!!!

GlenL

It sounds like the OP is figuring this out. The 944 is simpler and a bit more reliable on top of that. The 928 is more rare and parts consequently cost more and there less selection. You've gotta want it.

Wisconsin Joe

Something to remember is that the 928 was one of the most advanced cars of it's time.

Lots of systems that do all sorts of interesting things.

And 30 year old electrical systems can get a bit "crispy & crunchy" over time.

However, those systems are all independent. Nothing is interconnected, like just about every modern car.

For the most part, a basic understanding of electrical principles and wiring, use of a multi-meter and soldering will see you though. A large, economy size can of DeOxit is an essential part of your toolkit, too.

dr bob

Perhaps the best initial advice might be to go look at and drive/ride in a few 928's locally before you take the plunge. Run a flag up here and you'll find folks local to you who are more than happy to share their love and experiences with the cars. Get a taste of the cars and the requirements and be sure it's what you have in mind.

As with any Porsche, perhaps more so, it's incredibly important that you buy the best example your budget will support. The majority of cars in the market are going to need catch-up stuff done, and that list can be pretty daunting on its own without major repairs needed on top of the basic catch-up needs. For years I've reminded buyers that there's over $5k just in rubber parts needed to make a typical used-market 928 a reliable driver. That's just the parts. Others may scoff and tell about how they manage to keep the car going bits and pieces at a time for a lot less, and good for them. Decide what your standards are, how much time, talent and money you are willing to invest in a 928, and shop accordingly.

Have any candidate car PPI'd by a 928-knowledgeable place before you commit. Your new local 928 buddies will help you do initial screening on any candidate cars, but in the end you want a detailed expert list of things needed on your potential new toy. Plan to spend several $hundred or more on the expert PPI.

Consider that your candidate is 30-35 years old plus-or-minus, and has a very extended list of things that you want right. When well-maintained, these are very durable cars. But they are old cars, with age-related issues that need consideration. She will be an aging supermodel with a coke and makeup habit that will amaze you if you aren't ready for it. Spend on a newer already well maintained and not abused example and there will be less potential liver and heart-transplant needs to worry about, and we can't overlook the facelifts and other "restorative" surgery costs that can creep up.

Seth Pyle's situation is a well-documented case of taking care of lots of the stuff that needed taking care of, even though he "started out" with a pretty good car. Without looking back at his history here, there's at least a year of more-than-casual effort at this point, and he's only now closing in on having a good reliable driver for next driving season. He's not too far from you to maybe visit and see how much fun he's had with the car so far.

GJB928

Having both a 951 & 928 that I perform all maintenance on I would say that they are very similar in repairs once you get to the parts. However I would not characterize either as "easy". For instance a clutch job in a 944 could take a DIY'er one week. A 928 clutch job is simple in comparison. Reseal a cam tower on a 928? Go ahead and just pull the motor. Same job on a 944, couple of hours. Bottom line, if you are comfortable working on your 944 you will be fine with a 928. The best way I can describe it is, they are exactly the same only completely different.

elgy

To answer your original question... the 928 is a lot more complicated (twice as many cylinders and 10 times (?) as many gadgets), but nothing that a normal week-end mechanic with a decent toolkit and a garage cannot handle. My 928 came with a lot of the unnecessary stuff deleted (air conditioning, remote mirror adjustment, power seats etc.) and it never had a sun roof so I have been spared fixing those bits. All major systems work but there are a lot of other things that don't, including the clock, all the speakers but one, the rear window defroster, the heater...
Here is my thread.
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...-s-thread.html
My 924S has needed more mechanical work including a new clutch, but nothing I couldn't handle. Almost everything on the 924S works, even the clock and the original radio. The rear window defroster and the air conditioning don't.
https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-...-survivor.html
The cars are very different. I prefer driving the 924s, it's lighter has a 5 speed manual and handles like a sports car. But the 928 is beautiful... every time I approach, it whether in the driveway or a shopping center parking lot, I have to smile. And even with the 3-speed auto box when the tack hits 3000 rpm it gives you a bit a kick in the butt and the exhaust note is quite lovely.
Before heading to the US have a look at Kijiji listings for Quebec and Ontario... a lot less complicated and cheaper. And an opportunity for a road trip! There is not much available right now, but that will change when spring arrives.

Adk46

There are cars available from some sources that are almost "turn key", that you can just drive without having to do anything to them, probably, for some time. The ethic of most of the owners on this forum is to work to that goal with whatever they happened to start with - which can vary enormously. The tasks involved seem to be quite standardized, identified simply by "MM/OPG", "TB/WP", etc. I've done these, and others - with scant previous mechanical experience (thanks, Dwayne, and others here). A big help to me is that my car was was not all crunchy from exposure - I've had no struggles with stubborn bolts and the like. I see photos here of crunchy cars and count my blessings. I'm not sure I have the mental toughness to cope with broken water pump bolts.

My car cost me $16,000 starting out - kinda high at the time, but it was the right thing to do. I've added around $4000 in parts (excluding an encounter with a wayward tree on a dark and stormy night). It runs great, but there's still a long list of improvements to make.

Since you need to be in love with the car, find one that looks good. And not crunchy underneath. My sense is that you should definitely get one.

GT6ixer

Ok now that everyone has scared you with realities, a little each of which I have also experienced, let me just add that IMO anybody that wants to get in on the 4th floor on the way to the penthouse (elevator left the ground floor about 2 years ago) has about 2-3 years to find any decent 928s for less than $10K. You obviously have the mechanical skills so comined with this forum's collective knowledge you will have the ability to do all the work yourself. It's real simple, just comes down to your personal budget combined with how interested you are in 928s.

dr bob

You left out spousal tolerance factor, the 1/family-time-expected ratio for time actually working on the car, and how much of your lunch money budget can be diverted without anyone noticing that your wallet no longer casts a shadow.

I don't want to rain on anyone's dreams, as I've been down that path a few times including with the 928 we have now. Know what you want in the end, know what you are buying, and get a good handle on the differences and what and how long it will take to overcome them. Many "project" cars hit the market because someone underestimated what is needed, and the initially daunting lists moved towards "overwhelming".

danglerb

Some 928s redefine "project", with decades of skipped or partial repairs. That said a great many of us find working on them very satisfying. Fixes done right don't just make the car better, its closer to restoring like new, a real accomplishment.

If you want to save thousands, post your location and visit some of the locals and help fix their cars, we rarely charge much. Its amazing what you can get done with one or two semi mechanics, half a dozen supervisors, with beer and pizza.