SPS1989

Hello RENNLIST,
I am the F-New Guy...
Need advice on which 928 model and year is the least money pit??
Never owned a Porsche, but "now is the time".
I understand that ~20% have a manual transmissions - and that would be my preference.
Thank you,
BP

77tony

Welcome SPS. Couple of great places to start: https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...questions.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_928 Would advise to list your town and state in your sig and try and get to an upcoming 928 event (stickies listed on top of 928 home page) to familiarize you with the slightly different styles, power train updates, etc., over the years.02 T

prescott

Welcome SPS. You are in the right place for help with 928's. Check out the "stickies" at the top of the forum. There's tons of great info. I was a "lurker" for a year and learned pitfalls of 928s from just visiting the forum every few days. I'm still a FNG after 5 years of 928 ownership. I purchased an 88 928 S4 5 spd, that sat in peanut barn outside Atlanta for a decade. Very good original interior, decent original paint and 55k miles when purchased. I learned several things in 5 years of ownership.
1) Get a PPI on any car you are looking at, hopefully by a mechanic who KNOWS 928's. This could save you thousands, and find potential problems. You really don't want screwed up bodywork, nor thrust bearing failure (mostly automatics). Also, look at the current owners receipts....it will give you clues on what needs to be fixed ASAP.
2) Buy the best car you can find who has been worked on by someone who KNOW's 928's. Most P car mechanics know 911's, not our front engine cars. A "bargain" 928 is the worst thing you can do, and usually the most expensive 928 you can buy....parts and labor are both expensive on 928s.
3) 5 speeds are rare. This instantly cuts the number of potential cars out there for you to purchase. I searched for a year before I found mine.
4) Be ready to pour $15k of repairs into any 928 you purchase, unless you get one that has been well serviced by the excellent 928 mechanics on this board. You will soon learn who these are. Spending $25k+ on a 928 may seem "stupid", but if it has been gone through by one of the good mechanics on this board it is worth every dime. Trust me, there is a long list of things you must accomplish to make most neglected 928's "reliable and drive able" and not a mobile car-b-que. You will want to replace everything rubber on the car! Replace the fuel and power steering lines (prevent car-b-ques), clean out the gas tank, Timing Belt, vacuum lines, injectors, intake manifold gaskets, MAF, and go through the CE panel and grounds. For me, brakes, clutch, wheels and shocks also were necessary.
5) If you are not mechanically inclined (I am not good....but slowly improving), accept the fact that some jobs will be more than you can do and get the car to someone who KNOWS 928's. There are several good ones on this board scattered across the nation. I got lucky and a local independent in my area is competent. You may have to go outside your local area to find one. This will add to the cost to rehab your machine, but is less than screwing up your car yourself and then having a pro fix your mistakes.
6) I've spent $30k to buy and service my car. It's insured for $25k. I drive it to and from work twice a week and its a blast. After 5 years it now has 74k miles and I need new tires. I could probably sell it for about $20k if I was lucky. You won't make money on a 928 so don't believe they are "investments". Maybe air-cooled 911's were??
7) Buy the 928 turns your crank....the generations of the cars all have pro's and cons. I like OB's with Pascha, but couldn't find a decent one, and the "small engines" of the early cars can seem anemic compared to 1987+ MY. I really like GT and GTS's but couldn't afford one. I like the looks of my S4 and the power/sound of the 5.0 is addictive on on ramps!
Good luck on your search. Keep us posted. When you buy, post pictures!
Brian

IcemanG17

Long story short.... Find the best 928 you can afford. One that has been well cared for by a dedicated owner. It is always money well spent to buy a "sorted, needs nothing but new home" 928 than a "project"

The early cars are cheaper and some prefer the looks. A euro S perform great if it will pass smog in your area

Fogey1

+928. This is great advice. Be patient, have fun.

GregBBRD

"928" and "least money pit" are mutually exclusive, unless you find a car that one of the very few experts has just finished restoring or completely going through....and that car will be very expensive, up front.

There's a "joke" that Jim Bailey used to use, when he worked at 928 International. "You're $10,000 dollars away from having a $5,000 car."

Of course, years have passed since Jim blessed us with his presence at 928 International, and although that phrase still has about the same ratio, just with bigger numbers.

ptuomov

In my opinion, 1987 S4 is the best value and GT/CS from the same era probably the best car. Those still have all the good, expensive-to-make parts. Some of you may recall (and some of you may recall reading about) the Plaza Accord in 1985. Stuff that was designed and produced in Germany for the US market was only the best before the Plaza Accord started moving the exchange rates. After that, the cost cutting efforts started to dominate. Dropping the PPF rods and bringing in the cast rods in 928s, for example. Also, the '87 is still reasonably simple car. After that, many of the systems went electronic. While they may have made sense at the time for the only car of a person who traded his/her car in every three years, for someone looking for a hobby car today, all those no-longer-current electronics in later cars make the simpler, earlier car more desirable. Perversely, the worse models (hello, GTS!) are valued higher by the market now because fewer of them were made and fewer of them have survived. These are all opinions, goes without saying.

mkhargrove

Two schools of thought....
1. Buy a good one. Expensive up front, in theory less expensive after purchase. But, that's not a reality. You'll want to improve it regardless.
2. Buy a totally crapped out pos that has a good body and almost all of the parts are there. If you want an awesome paint job and perfect interior, there's no reason to
pay the premium for a "pretty good" cards vs "pos" if you're going to repaint, re-upholster, re-carpet, etc. Just don't buy anything that shows any evidence of being crashed.

(number 2 means you don't get to drive your car for about 2 months after you buy it....10x longer if you do it all yourself)

Personally, I wouldn't worry so much about the year....do you prefer the S4 (more modern styling on front/rear, faster.....), or do you like the vintage original body style?

docmirror

1980 US spec 5 speed. Early cars have more 5 speeds avail. The teething pains were somewhat worked out by 1980. US spec will not be federalized by some hack-meister. A bit less electrical gadgetry to go wrong. Parts are fairly easy to get new or also junkyard scrounge. Decent speed. Get good paint, mechanicals are quite robust on these cars.

karl ruiter

-I would say the 'least money pit' car would be an '83-'84 US 4.7 automatic with medium-low miles and documented service. These have always been the most undervalued of the cars, very reliable, and the go-ing and stopping part is not bad. You have to be happy with the looks and performance, though. Once you start with pretty much any performance modification say ahoy the money pit.
-If you are not satisfied with the looks or performance there, then an '87, 88 S4 would be the ticket. A bit more money pit, but much better performance.
-The real early CIS cars...well they have CIS. Which is fine unless it is an endless mysterious witch hunt. Electrical complexity is lower, though. Stock stopping power not good enough.
-'85,'86 are the hardest to work on and performance is not up to S4 level.
-GT, GTS, acquisition price is headed north and electrical complexity, already high at S4 level, gets even worse. The great master of 928 says the GT is the best of the breed, but it is no secret, and you would want an good one and that is going to be a high acquisition price.
-GTS has some flaws: rods, oil consumption, rear wheel liners, intake hoses, etc. Harder to fit in a parking space and the rear wheel flares tend to pick up dings. The mirrors are pretty but stupid. Still the best investment because long term value is there.

Its all kinda a mystery though in the end. I bought a $3k '88 S4 and have/will spend years getting it up the the level of decent daily driver. Because I do all the work myself, with some luck, I will end up with maybe $10k or $12K and will likely lose most of that in the end. But I will feel free to drive it as much as I want. I got a smashing deal on nice GTS, but I felt like I really could not drive it, so sold it. Made some money, but the time would have been better invested in my S4.

Wisconsin Joe

Welcome. As suggested, read the stickies.

I don't believe there is a 'best' year. I know Nate doesn't agree with that, but he's entitled to his opinion.
Each version has it's own pluses and minuses.

I've asked these questions before. You don't need to answer them for me (or anyone else), but make sure you answer them honestly for yourself.

1 - What kind of car do you want?
The kind that sits in the garage and gets wiped with a diaper, only going out to shows and events?
A nice 'weekend and nice days' car?
A 'driver' that has flaws, but you aren't afraid to park it at the store?
A beater that needs work?
A project that needs a LOT of work?

2 - How much of your own work can you do?
Full shop including a lift & air? Able to do just about anything?
Couple of roll aways full, including some specialty stuff? Able to do major projects (head gaskets, engine pull)?
A good sized tool box, all the common tools? Able to do mid-level projects (water pump, intake manifold)?
Small tool kit, nothing special? Able to change oil?
A couple pairs of pliers a few screw drivers and a Crescent wrench? Maybe can change fuses?

3 - How much to you want to spend?
A lot?
A whole lot?
Just won the lottery and money isn't an issue? (note that 'not a lot" isn't an option)

As was also suggested, try to find a "Get together" near you to attend. You don't need to own one to be an enthusiast.
Put your location in your profile. We seem to be scattered all over. There's likely one of 'us' somewhere near you.

Even a 'Cars & Coffee' with a couple of 928s would let you see them in person and talk to the owners.

Jason89s4

SPS1989,
My two cents, to someone getting into a 928 without "too much" money, or "too much complexity", I'm with Karl on suggesting an '83 or '84.
They are currently undervalued IMO, they have the larger 4.7 16v, which has plenty of torque, is bullet-proof and it is non-interference. Certainly easier to understand and work on than a 32v. They have the benefits of the L-Jet electronic injection over CIS, but not the complexities or repair expense of the LH.
Wait for one that has a good history of good owners, and when well-sorted, it is a reliable car that is fun to drive.
Do I think the 83-84 is the "best" 928? No, but I do think it may be the best for a self described FNG.

Best advice is from all-the-above--go to a 928 gathering/event and take a look at them all, take notes, ask questions (including how much did you pay and how much have you had to do--some folks won't tell you, but plenty more are happy to share.) And lurk on this forum!
Good luck!
-Jason

dr bob

The best one for me is the one I have owned for over 20 years, the one that has pretty much everything sorted and is reliable enough to dash across the country and back without a second thought. You'll be looking for a car that offers you that same level of comfort.

Several many years ago now, a local in SoCal asked the same question you pose. My recommendation, echoed by others here now, was to buy absolutely the best example available. The local followed that advice, and bought a car that needed nothing immediately. So nothing was done to it during that ownership. When the needed PM started piling up, the car went on the market. Fortunatly the next owner is aware of the needs and capable of the work.

My car is in good to excellent condition, and is subject to a rigid PM program to keep it that way. That effort costs around $2.5K/yr just in parts and related costs. No labor costs are included since I have a metric hammer and screwdrivers and know how to use them.

Based on similar info from owners with similar philosophies, plan on spending a similar amount if your target is similar to mine. If you need to hi out the work, plan on at least 2x that amount for labor on top of parts for top-tier work.

Meanwhile, others will share stories of how they lucked into a $5k car that they are slowly nursing back to life. A local here in Oregon opined that he "just wants to drive it, not work on it." Referring to his well-bought but still quite typical 40+ year old car. These are Old Cars. There are plenty of age-related concerns costs requirments that happen to cars that may or may not be driven. Decide what you have in mind. Whatever decent car you buy will cost you 25-30k total over the first couple years one way or another to purchase and make it a reliable driver.

Welcome to the group!

hacker-pschorr

"I understand that ~20% have a manual transmissions"
That depends on the year.
The early cars the ratio of 5-speeds is much higher than the later 32V models. However, this is a Catch-22 since the early cars have double disc clutches that many mechanics had issues properly setting up and when they are not working properly, will destroy the synchros in the transmissions.
This is why you will often see in the classified listings of early cars: "Transmission grinds into 2nd gear, this is a known issue".
This is only a "known" issue because of improper maintenance and can also be exacerbated by the fact that these transmissions do not react well to "speed shifting" and many have lived through owners who slam 1st into 2nd which can also damage the synchros.
Transmission rebuild can run anywhere from $2k - $5k depending on what parts are needed assuming the needed parts are even available.
So if the car you are test driving does not shift into 2nd gear like butter during normal driving, most likely the trans needs to be rebuilt and possible the clutch is hanging up too.
A complete clutch pack can be a few thousand dollars too.


Cheapest to buy / own will be a US 80 - 82 automatic by far. 83-84 US cars second. Almost identical to the 80-83 cars but because they are all "S" models usually sell for a bit more.

The cost of entry for these years will always be the lowest of all the 928's and the automatic eliminates the high expense of fixing the double disc clutch and transmission synchros.
Avoiding the 78/79 cars eliminates CIS, which works great when it's working. Looking for a project car this can add considerable expenses over the L-Jet system of the 80-84 US cars.

L-Jet is relatively cheap to get running
The ignition brains almost never fail
The fuel injection brain almost never fail
The "barn door" AFM is inexpensive to get rebuilt
About the most absurd expense is the $130 "green wire"
Coolant temp sensor is cheap
Injectors are expensive due to being low impedance, but I've never had issues getting them cleaned / serviced at about $20 a piece
The automatics are practically bullet proof unless you run them out of fluid

HVAC system is "old school" without all the electronic vacuum solenoids.

docmirror

Well, if folks can't work on CIS, then they shouldn't even look at a 928. CIS is mechanical, pressure driven FI, and is by far the simplest FI system since the dawn of man. Of course, most dolts decide they can't/won't pay attention, buy the pressure gauges required and hack at it with a few wrenches, hammer and a can of Techron. Then they wonder why it won't idle, it won't rev past 3000, and has black smoke coming out.

Partial list of cars with factory Bosch CIS; Ferrari, Lamborghini, Fiat, Seat, Peugeot, Lancia, VW, Audi, MB, BMW, Porsche, Vauxall, Simca, Lada, Skoda, Rover, and a few I forget. From someone who has tuned six dual throat Webers on a Lambo V12, I find the CIS work refreshingly simple. But - sure, there's a bunch of mouth-breathers out there just keep adding shims, removing shims, replace pump, add cleaner, turn mixture in, turn mixture out, set bypass full open, block open air damper. Whatev...

The 83-84 is a decent choice but not a lot of manual cars avail.