abolfaz

What’s telling is that some of the certificates were signed by hand and other typed which leads me to believe the dealer filled them out and therefore could have written in anything they wanted. That doesn’t explain the numbering on the badge though

19psi

Considering the car could have ended up at any of ~200 dealerships, who else would have filled it out? Do you also think the dealership engraved the badge with some random number?

M462 is the option code from Porsche. This isn't some made up option that a handful of US dealerships made up (that you seem to keep alluding to).

abolfaz

there is no doubt it was a factory option, my point is that the badge, certificate and three glossy photos that came with the certificate were definitely Porsche/Audi/vw America creations. And again, when we bought our car new back in 82, it took a month or so after delivery for those items to show up and they were not of the kind and quality of things you’d expect from the factory.

19psi

Is the Seeger luggage (made in Germany with Porsche emblems and often delivered later to the owner) also a poor quality stateside gimmick? If so, it's funny how my set has a higher value than quite a few actual 928s on the road today.
The certificate is heavy stock with glossy gold leaf print, should it have been made out of engraved platinum? The areas are left blank like any document to be filled out when sold. Porsche doesn't have a crystal ball to tell them what dealership will eventually end up with the car and the date it will be sold. Porsche + Audi? lol You do realize there's a relation between the two, right? Do a Google search for Porsche window stickers from the 80s, pick whatever model you like and tell me what appears across the top.
What should the # badge look like to be of proper quality in your opinion? Owners had the option of whether they wanted it attached or not. For those that wanted it attached, should Porsche have found a way to bolt or weld it to the interior vs a sticky adhesive? A bit difficult considering anything in a 928 not covered in leather is (gasp) plastic.

Was Porsche unaware of this sketchy US sales tactic featuring the 924, 911 and 928? Or did they just turn a blind eye to Weissach sales brochures, full color ads and of course official looking certificates and badges that aren't real?

Lastly, do you still own your 928 Weissach? What was your buying experience like? Or when you say "we" does that mean you were a kid at the time a relative bought one?

abolfaz

WOW! There's a lot to digest there! It's been close to a decade since I've argued with someone on the internet, I never imagined that I would be doing so again at this station in life. I sense some hostility here so I can't resist.

Let's take it once sentence at a time with my answers in bold if you don't mind.

1. Is the Seeger luggage (made in Germany with Porsche emblems and often delivered later to the owner) also a poor quality stateside gimmick? The seeger luggage arrived from Germany in the trunk of the car and was present in the showroom when we first viewed the car and delivered with the car when we took possession albeit with a ton of stuffing paper to completely fill out the luggage to give the appearance that they were fully packed. I was assigned the task of removing said stuffing/packing paper when we arrived at home from the dealership.
2. If so, it's funny how my set has a higher value than quite a few actual 928s on the road today. I'm not sure what kind of cars you're surrounded with, but if you say so, OK!
3. The certificate is heavy stock with glossy gold leaf print, should it have been made out of engraved platinum? The white envelope that was delivered to us nearly a month after we took delivery of the car contained three 8.5x11 glossy photos of the car, the certificate that indicated which number the car was out of a series of 205 as well as a crude engraved badge that looked like it was made at a local trophy shop. To this day, over 40 years later and after having owned several "special edition" porsche's, including but not limited to 1989 m504 turbo with tons of special wishes options, 1988.5 944 turbo s,1994 3.6 turbo, 1994 3.6 turbo s flachbau, 1997 turbo S, etc, I have never seen anything of such poor quality come from the factory. If the quality of that certificate, the font, the quality of paper etc is impressive to you for a car, which at the time cost as much as an average home, then that's great.
4. The areas are left blank like any document to be filled out when sold. Porsche doesn't have a crystal ball to tell them what dealership will eventually end up with the car and the date it will be sold. Very interesting point but ill considered. Take a look at the window sticker, somehow Porsche's "crystal ball" must have been functioning when those were printed as they clearly show "what dealership will eventually end up with the car".
5. Porsche + Audi? lol You do realize there's a relation between the two, right? Do a Google search for Porsche windowstickers from the 80s, pick whatever model you like and tell me what appears across the top. Another great point. Do you understand what that "Porsche + Audi" stood for? The "Porsche+Audi" you see in those stickers and in the vintage porsche ads was not for the factory but for the north american distributor that distributed the cars whose dealers were more often than not were affiliated with VW dealerships (PORSCHE + AUDI, A SUBSIDIARY OF VOLKSWAGON AMERICA, INC). This arrangement ended in the mid 1980's with the formation of Porsche Cars North America Inc (1984 or 1985 I think). When I refer to the chintzy plaque/certificate/glossy photos, I am suggesting that this white envelope with the aforementioned contents was created by the porsche distributor (PORSCHE + AUDI, A SUBSIDIARY OF VOLKSWAGON AMERICA, INC) rather than the factory itself (Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG). You cold see the difference in quality with the in period brochures and technical documents, anything generated by the factory was substantial, high quality and was obviously from the factory while the brochures and such generated by the distributor were of much poorer quality more in line with the wiessach documents furnished post delivery (at least in our case)
6. What should the # badge look like to be of proper quality in your opinion? At the very least, the same kind and quality of the crest on the intake manifold of the 16v cars, perhaps even something in line with the crest on the hood with an enamel finish rather than something that was cut on a cheap engraving machine that's mounted with double sided tape. If indeed it did come from the factory, shouldn't there be a factory part number for the weissach badge?
7. Owners had the option of whether they wanted it attached or not. For those that wanted it attached, should Porsche have found a way to bolt or weld it to the interior vs a sticky adhesive? A bit difficult considering anything in a 928 not covered in leather is (gasp) plastic. We were told the dealer was instructed to mount the badge to the center of the upper dash. My father hated the badge and preferred the aesthetic of the dash without the badge. I don't know if Porsche+Audi (the north american distributor) dictated the location of the badge or if it was done at the dealer or owner's discretion. FWIW, we had a neighbor with a weissach who had the badge mounted to the right of the clock on the center console. One more thing, would you mind directing us to any porsche factory part that is installed on our beloved 928's interior with double sided tape?
8. Was Porsche unaware of this sketchy US sales tactic featuring the 924, 911 and 928? Or did they just turn a blind eye to Weissach sales brochures, full color ads and of course official looking certificates and badges that aren't real? I have no idea, perhaps someone that was affiliated with the north american distributor or the factory here can chime in. I am fairly confident that the 911 weissach did not come with any of what I am suggesting was the "distributor" supplied special edition garb. Furthermore, if you can't see the difference in the factory supplied emblems (IE, hood crest, crest on intake, etc) and the weissach special edition badge, I think this conversation is moot.
9. Lastly, do you still own your 928 Weissach? Sensitive question. No, I do not currently own the 1982 928 weissach that we bought from koeppel porsche audi in Flushing New York back in may of 1982. I searched for almost three decades to find the car to no avail (thread on here somewhere) and then literally ran into the car by accident last december and have been trying to pry it out of the current owners hands since. With that said, I own two weissachs now, one of which is being restored by member KilnRed (thread on here somewhere as well and a youtube video of sonderwerks restoring the interior) as well as 7 other 928's ranging from a 78 OB up to a 1993 GTS. These are the 928's that I currently own, I have owned at least a dozen others in the past. In addition to the 928's, I own several 930's, two vintage gemballa's, a ruf BTR (in fact, BTR #9), several concours winning vintage ferrari's (I have photos of them on this forum somewhere) and several vintage lamborghini's (Google "ft lauderdale boat show countach" and you'll see my pearl white 87 countach displayed on the back of my yacht during the 2022 ft Lauderdaleinternational boat show) and just today, my 993 GT2 EVO got approved to run in the 2024 Le Mans Classic. Suffice it to say, I know a little more about the subject matter than the average forum member / 928 owner.
10. What was your buying experience like? I described said experience several years ago on this forum. If you'd like me to expand on the experience, let me know and I'll walk you through it.
11. Or when you say "we" does that mean you were a kid at the time a relative bought one? By "we", I mean my father and my family. The car was my father's daily for one year after which it became my mother's daily driver for the next three years. From there it went to my uncle who kept it into the mid 90's. I lost track of the car from then until last December. I knew the car inside and out and was it's caretaker during our ownership, in fact, on the drive home from the dealer, I was the one who figured out how to close the sunroof after the sunroof switch literally melted and nearly caught fire.

Now, with all that said, please let me know if you have any other questions and please, do tell about your weissach buying/ownership experience from the fateful day in 1982 when you must have taken delivery of yours. My sincerest apologies to the forum members for my rant.

Wyo928

I take it you are the one who bought the 5-speed Weissach on BAT in May? Looks like a nice example and a fair price, especially given that there are supposedly only 73. Congratulations!
Also sounds like you have enough amazing cars to catch Jay Leno's attention. Must be fun!

Thanks for sharing the #218 certificate. I hadn't noticed that originally on BAT. Still wondering about the numbering disparity, though I won't lose any sleep over it.

And thanks to all who've passed along their Weissach wisdom!

19psi

Just to clear up a few things, I would have been 11 when my 928 was built; however, I never insinuated I bought a $50K item 41 years ago.
Since this is a 928 forum, I don't have much interest in your non related 928 cars.

Luggage didn't always automatically show up in the trunk. I talked to more than one original owner who had to wait for his (and her) luggage. One never received it and just let it go and a few received just the suitcases and never the garment bag. Several cars have also come up for auction with everything except the garment bag.

Porsche + Audi That was you who added a big red arrow pointing at those words as if it was some kind of evidence proving a conspiracy. Pretty sure the 928 Weissach only sold in the US, so what else would be on it?

Badge quality again...it's an interior badge, not something going on a scorching hot engine, wheels or a bumper exposed to weather on the front of a car. The 928 may have cost as much as a house, yet it uses plastic for the console, pod, door handles, column covers, lower dash, etc. AND they often look as warped and cracked as a Salvador Dali painting (if you can't see that the interior of a 928 is loaded with poor quality plastic, then this conversation is moot).
Double sided tape adhesive is how pretty much every manufacturer attaches badges inside and outside of cars. Since the 928 doesn't advertise much in the interior and I've never seen one with an emblem, I can't give any examples. Actually, I can't think of anything that identifies my car as a 928 other than the Weissach badge and the PLASTIC door sills. Now I can give you many examples or crappy adhesives used on my Cayenne, but this isn't the Cayenne forum.
Part # for a one off engraved item?

Acting like the mother base in Germany never had any part of what was going on with their Weissach editions in the US is ridiculous.
It would be a long running scam too.
You would think if Ferdinand Porsche's signature was being used without permission, heads would be rolling.

NoVector

Just wanted to say thanks for sharing and hope you and your family Weissach hook up again someday. To have the ability to reacquire a vehicle that my parents owned in the 80s just seems incredible to me.

Me borrowing my parent’s car in 1980:

abolfaz

funny that you mention that, I watched the auction but didn’t buy it. The current owner, a Porsche dealer no less, who bought it “to drive around the Hamptons”, is currently trying to sell it again for far less than he paid for it. Lots wrong with the car, I’m already up to my ears restoring three other 928’s, I don’t need another project.

abolfaz

Let's try again...

1. Just to clear up a few things, I would have been 11 when my 928 was built; however, I never insinuated I bought a $50K item 41 years ago. You've missed my point, reread what I wrote.
2. Since this is a 928 forum, I don't have much interest in your non related 928 cars. I mentioned some of my other cars simply for context, since you don't care, let's simply focus on the 928's I currently own that provide me with slightly more 928 knowledge than the average guy on the street. No disrespect to others on the forum who know far more than me about the subject matter.
3. Luggage didn't always automatically show up in the trunk. Delivered with the car from germany, period, end of story. The cars left the factory with the luggage inside.
4. I talked to more than one original owner who had to wait for his (and her) luggage. One never received it and just let it go and a few received just the suitcases and never the garment bag. Several cars have also come up for auction with everything except the garment bag. Once again, the cars left the factory with the luggage in place, where the luggage went after departing the factory can be any ones guess. Sticky fingers at the port? Maybe a dealer principle decided to hang on to them until the buyer found out the car was supposed to come with the car? Who knows.
5. Porsche + Audi That was you who added a big red arrow pointing at those words as if it was some kind of evidence proving a conspiracy. Pretty sure the 928 Weissach only sold in the US, so what else would be on it? Once again, you miss my point all together. The weissach package was a factory option as evidenced by the option code, I am simply positing that the plaque, certificate and glossy photos were created by Porsche + Audi, a division of Volkswagon of America Inc who was the porsche distributor during the time of delivery.
6. Badge quality again...it's an interior badge, not something going on a scorching hot engine, wheels or a bumper exposed to weather on the front of a car. Again, missing my point alltogether.
7. The 928 may have cost as much as a house, yet it uses plastic for the console, pod, door handles, column covers, lower dash, etc. AND they often look as warped and cracked as a Salvador Dali painting (if you can't see that the interior of a 928 is loaded with poor quality plastic, then this conversation is moot). The badge looks silly and cheap and unlike anything the factory would have provided.
8. Double sided tape adhesive is how pretty much every manufacturer attaches badges inside and outside of cars. That's an over general statement that is not true. Regardless, as I've said before, the execution of the badge and it's installation is subpar. I'd like to refer you to the horn pad on a properly optioned M504 930's as evidenced by the photo of my 1989 930. Look at the quality of the badge, inset into the leather horn pad rather than some poor quality badge as supplied with our weissach cars. Last time I checked, there is no scorching hot temperature in my interior nor is it exposed to weather yet somehow porsche (the factory) managed to have a beautiful badge with an enameled finish inset into the leather horn pad. Wouldn't it stand to reason that if the weissach badge was a factory piece, it would have been of the same kind and quality as the badge on my 930?
9. Since the 928 doesn't advertise much in the interior and I've never seen one with an emblem, I can't give any examples. Actually, I can't think of anything that identifies my car as a 928 other than the Weissach badge and the PLASTIC door sills. Next time you're behind the wheel, I'd like to direct you to the horn pad located directly in front of you. Take a look and revert.
10. Now I can give you many examples or crappy adhesives used on my Cayenne, but this isn't the Cayenne forum. On that point, I concur.
11. Part # for a one off engraved item? It was not a one off, but one of 205 (or may be more?), My m504 car and my ex 964 turbo S had many, many one off parts that were unique to my particular car and guess what? They all had part numbers from the factory, so it stands to reason, that there would be a factory part number for our weissach badges if indeed they came from the factory.
12. Acting like the mother base in Germany never had any part of what was going on with their Weissach editions in the US is ridiculous. I don't know where you come to that conclusion from, I am simply stating that the post production weissach items delivered in the white envelope was not sanctioned by the factory as it was of inferior quality to what I think the factory would have put out.
13. It would be a long running scam too. After forty plus years of buying Porsche special editions, I can tell you, they might not be accurately described as a scam but some of them are damn close.
14. You would think if Ferdinand Porsche's signature was being used without permission, heads would be rolling. It was a different world back then, I personally know several people that used the mane, signature, etc on mass produced items with no consequences. I'm not suggesting that the factory didn't know about what I'm suggesting was a distributor created post production weissach package (badge, certificates, photos), the company was doing so poorly financially, that I don't think they cared.

BTW. thanks for proving my hypothesis. Another instance of a US distributor generated certificate and plaque.

abolfaz

My apologies, I don't know how to imbed multiple photos and organize the respective text in order. Here is the horn pad from my m504 car. What's imaged there is a nicely made badge with an enamel finish that is imbedded in the leather wrapped horn pad. This isn't a hood badge that porsche relocated to the interior but is instead a purpose built badge designed to be mounted in the interior of the car. Notice the difference in execution of this badge versus the weissach badge haphazardly stuck to the leather dash of our 928's.

Vilhuer

How do you know this? Cars didn't and still don't arrive directly from factory to dealers. There is Porsche importer facility in between where anything can be added to each car which goes through the place.

Looneybin

this is also assuming that they started the numbering with 001
alot of times, the first of any # is used for promo, corporate cars or crash tested and the actual production starts about 15 number higher

abolfaz

’this is how our car came off the transporter as it was picked from the port with the cosmoline etc all over it. I saw the car before it was prepped by the dealer for display while we had our other car in for service. Regardless,, you have a point, anything could have been possible, my opinion was based on what I observed which could have been different for the other cars.

ROG100

I would not part with a set of luggage for less than $10k.
The original owner of my second Weissach did NOT receive the luggage when the car was delivered to him. He had to make waves to get the luggage returned. Stolen by someone at the dealer ship.
I think the quality of my badges and certificates are pretty good.
At least Porsche documented the Weissach series which is not what they did for the Jubilee.