Supercharger kits in europe
04-28-2020, 09:51 AM
#46
Drifting
and my BMW 850 started serious oil leaks all over his gaskets ….don't know for a 928 engine. ( i installed a belt driven Moroso vacuumpump to keep the engine at 100 gr vacuum. All oil leaks became air inlets . Works perfect. But more blow by in any (old ) engine will give oil leaks …..no ?
Let's assume for the moment that the numbers are good, thus we can rule out an overly tired engine causing the blowby pressurizing the crankcase.
Therefore, detonation is more-than-likely causing the crankcase to pressurize, and in turn, causing the oil leaks.
Tuned correctly, it will eliminate detonation, then no more pressurized crankcase, and resultantly, no more oil leaks.
Finally, there won't be a need for a vacuum pump.
04-28-2020, 11:43 AM
#47
Administrator - "Tyson"
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04-28-2020, 12:39 PM
#48
Developer
There is so much that is incorrect and just plain wrong in that post that it shows your ignorance on the topic of the standard LH/EZK combo.
It's obvious his motives are to disparage the stock setup along with the Shark Tuner in order to boost interest in his products.
Where I bristle is when I see claims that a tuned LH solves all problems and is magically transformed into "all you need". Um, no. No it isn't. It still cant measure boost. It still cannot provide the resolution necessary for high performance motors, and many other things that are not the Sharktuner's fault - simply capabilities that are beyond the original architecture of the LH and EZK system.
Last edited by Carl Fausett; 04-28-2020 at 01:26 PM.
04-30-2020, 10:43 AM
#49
Nordschleife Master
Is this thread and this post in particular about street cars or race cars? If any of this is intended to be applicable for a street car, then I do have some comments on the claims here.
I like the Sharktuner, and the Sharktuner works. But please understand that tuning the map in your old LH and/or EZK does not update the hardware, make the two computers share information, react faster, or solve the problems of the old platinum wire MAF' sensors. We wish that were so, but it is not. There are limitations to the 1980's era computers, and software tweaks cannot make them up alone.
For example, if your shark is boosted, you'd like the engine management to measure and respond to positive intake manifold pressure. The stock EMS has no provision for that.
Also if boosted, we would like to see a system that can react in real time to a knock event, or even predict a coming knock event, and both enrich the mixture and retard the timing. The stock LH and EZK computers do not speak to each other, and cannot do this. Even if they did speak to each other, their processors are way to slow to respond. Modern chipsets and busses in the new engine management systems are much faster to respond and many have fairly good predictive capability.
Better to go with a MAP system like a Motronic, Halltec, Megasquirt, or Electromotive. We favor the Electromotive system here, and we sellt hem. Added plus - when our injector wiring harnesses are failing left and right - you get a new injection wiring harness with the Tec GT when you buy it. That is a big bonus!
For example, if your shark is boosted, you'd like the engine management to measure and respond to positive intake manifold pressure. The stock EMS has no provision for that.
Also if boosted, we would like to see a system that can react in real time to a knock event, or even predict a coming knock event, and both enrich the mixture and retard the timing. The stock LH and EZK computers do not speak to each other, and cannot do this. Even if they did speak to each other, their processors are way to slow to respond. Modern chipsets and busses in the new engine management systems are much faster to respond and many have fairly good predictive capability.
Better to go with a MAP system like a Motronic, Halltec, Megasquirt, or Electromotive. We favor the Electromotive system here, and we sellt hem. Added plus - when our injector wiring harnesses are failing left and right - you get a new injection wiring harness with the Tec GT when you buy it. That is a big bonus!
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MAX928 (04-30-2020)
04-30-2020, 08:09 PM
#50
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Originally Posted by Carl Fausett
I like the Sharktuner, and the Sharktuner works. But please understand that tuning the map in your old LH and/or EZK does not update the hardware, make the two computers share information, react faster, or solve the problems of the old platinum wire MAF' sensors. We wish that were so, but it is not. There are limitations to the 1980's era computers, and software tweaks cannot make them up alone.
For example, if your shark is boosted, you'd like the engine management to measure and respond to positive intake manifold pressure. The stock EMS has no provision for that.
Also if boosted, we would like to see a system that can react in real time to a knock event, or even predict a coming knock event, and both enrich the mixture and retard the timing. The stock LH and EZK computers do not speak to each other, and cannot do this. Even if they did speak to each other, their processors are way to slow to respond. Modern chipsets and busses in the new engine management systems are much faster to respond and many have fairly good predictive capability.
Better to go with a MAP system like a Motronic, Halltec, Megasquirt, or Electromotive. We favor the Electromotive system here, and we sellt hem. Added plus - when our injector wiring harnesses are failing left and right - you get a new injection wiring harness with the Tec GT when you buy it. That is a big bonus!
For example, if your shark is boosted, you'd like the engine management to measure and respond to positive intake manifold pressure. The stock EMS has no provision for that.
Also if boosted, we would like to see a system that can react in real time to a knock event, or even predict a coming knock event, and both enrich the mixture and retard the timing. The stock LH and EZK computers do not speak to each other, and cannot do this. Even if they did speak to each other, their processors are way to slow to respond. Modern chipsets and busses in the new engine management systems are much faster to respond and many have fairly good predictive capability.
Better to go with a MAP system like a Motronic, Halltec, Megasquirt, or Electromotive. We favor the Electromotive system here, and we sellt hem. Added plus - when our injector wiring harnesses are failing left and right - you get a new injection wiring harness with the Tec GT when you buy it. That is a big bonus!
If the MAF is measuring mass air flow in weight and the density ratio is calculated from this measurement, how would it not be able to work in a boosted car?
What reason is there that using the molecular mass of air to calculate the corresponding amount of fuel to add is unworkable compared to a sensor that measures the pressure of the manifold and then calculates the amount of fuel needed?
Additionally, why would the pressure (boost measurement) be needed if the fuel/air mixture is referenced by the amount of fuel compared to the amount of air? (Amount being equated to atomic mass or molecular weight)
How does the ecu response to positive pressure become superior to response to the mass of air in the chamber for calculating the amount of fuel to add?
Is the mass of the air in the chamber different in weight because it is pressurized? (I say no because it's impossible under the laws of physics, however, please enlighten us)
If the 80's technology is too old and unsophisticated, how did F1 teams use 70's technology that is older and extract more power from their engines?
How fast should the chipset be to be adequate for an ecu?
Which of the ecu's mentioned have real time knock detection and predictive knock deterrence?
I say none. But my knowledge is limited to Cosworth/Pectel and Motec, not to the ones you mentioned. It would be interesting to learn if there have been such advances in ecu sensitivity and software development since I stopped playing with ecu's years ago.
What problem does the platinum wire MAF have that is adverse to using it for a forced induction engine?
Thanks 🙏?
04-30-2020, 08:32 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
What Blau says.
Also, one of the supposed benefits of the MAF is that it does not need correction for elevation (barometric pressure) because it measures mass of air independent of pressure.
Obviously there may be advances since the 80's, so a modern ecu might work better in some way, and it sounds like Carl has listed some of those ways. Nonetheless it seems like it should register a mass air signal, whether it has sufficient range for full throttle, I don't know.
Thanks,
Dave
Also, one of the supposed benefits of the MAF is that it does not need correction for elevation (barometric pressure) because it measures mass of air independent of pressure.
Obviously there may be advances since the 80's, so a modern ecu might work better in some way, and it sounds like Carl has listed some of those ways. Nonetheless it seems like it should register a mass air signal, whether it has sufficient range for full throttle, I don't know.
Thanks,
Dave
04-30-2020, 08:45 PM
#52
Nordschleife Master
Almost all new gasoline powered cars have turbos and almost all of those new turbo cars use MAF as the primary load measurement method, so there’s that as far as the obvious debunking of some claims go.
05-01-2020, 06:39 AM
#53
Rennlist Member
Carl, with all due respect is displaying a profound lack of understanding of how the LH/EZK work. Yes, there are newer systems out there, but when all is said and done, I think the ST option as still one of the best as it is Plug and Play. As for the MAF not being able to manage boost - perhaps Carl should get in touch with BMW and tell them they build my 2017 twin-turbocharged V8 Suv all wrong with two MAFs? By the way, JDS provides a Super MAF, which can cope with +ve air pressure. I am sure if one asks nicely and pays the correct amount, John would be more than happy to oblige.
P.S. A Shark Tuner user here, but Alpha-N and ITBs...
P.S. A Shark Tuner user here, but Alpha-N and ITBs...
05-01-2020, 08:34 AM
#54
Rennlist Member
The internet contains more lies than truth but the dynamometer generally speaking does not lie. Now, take a stock motor, dyno it and do the same with an opimally sharktuned motor and you will see an incremental power delivery increase pretty much across the entire rev range. Take the same motor and put whatever engine management system on it that one wants and measure the power increase- will it deliver any more than ST2 and if it does, is the cost differential [$3k versus $1k] worth it?
When it comes to processing speed what exactly is defunct about the stock system? The modest [amateur] work I have done with ST2 somewhat impressed me- and that was with regard to the knock retard system. Not only does it retard the cylinder it detects the knock on it appears to have done so by the next firing stroke unless I am mistaken- how quick do folks want or need it to be? Old tech- yes, slower than todays systems -of course, inferior performance? - demonstation of the evidence supporting that would be helpful!
Remember with a bit of his magic touch and some housekeeping in the software, Ken managed to convert the stock system to a semi sequential firing system by grouping similar cylinders and applying more or less advance to each group and let the system self optimise.
When it comes to processing speed what exactly is defunct about the stock system? The modest [amateur] work I have done with ST2 somewhat impressed me- and that was with regard to the knock retard system. Not only does it retard the cylinder it detects the knock on it appears to have done so by the next firing stroke unless I am mistaken- how quick do folks want or need it to be? Old tech- yes, slower than todays systems -of course, inferior performance? - demonstation of the evidence supporting that would be helpful!
Remember with a bit of his magic touch and some housekeeping in the software, Ken managed to convert the stock system to a semi sequential firing system by grouping similar cylinders and applying more or less advance to each group and let the system self optimise.
05-01-2020, 10:20 AM
#55
Nordschleife Master
Dyno may not lie, except under torture, of course. Unfortunately, dynos can't post directly here. People do.
For a street car, I don't see it a realistic possibility that one could replace all the stock EZK + LH functionality with an aftermarket ECU with total cost of $3k. Cost accounting systems also don't lie, except under torture. Unfortunately, cost accounting systems can't post directly here. People do.
For a street car, I don't see it a realistic possibility that one could replace all the stock EZK + LH functionality with an aftermarket ECU with total cost of $3k. Cost accounting systems also don't lie, except under torture. Unfortunately, cost accounting systems can't post directly here. People do.
The internet contains more lies than truth but the dynamometer generally speaking does not lie. Now, take a stock motor, dyno it and do the same with an opimally sharktuned motor and you will see an incremental power delivery increase pretty much across the entire rev range. Take the same motor and put whatever engine management system on it that one wants and measure the power increase- will it deliver any more than ST2 and if it does, is the cost differential [$3k versus $1k] worth it?
When it comes to processing speed what exactly is defunct about the stock system? The modest [amateur] work I have done with ST2 somewhat impressed me- and that was with regard to the knock retard system. Not only does it retard the cylinder it detects the knock on it appears to have done so by the next firing stroke unless I am mistaken- how quick do folks want or need it to be? Old tech- yes, slower than todays systems -of course, inferior performance? - demonstation of the evidence supporting that would be helpful!
Remember with a bit of his magic touch and some housekeeping in the software, Ken managed to convert the stock system to a semi sequential firing system by grouping similar cylinders and applying more or less advance to each group and let the system self optimise.
When it comes to processing speed what exactly is defunct about the stock system? The modest [amateur] work I have done with ST2 somewhat impressed me- and that was with regard to the knock retard system. Not only does it retard the cylinder it detects the knock on it appears to have done so by the next firing stroke unless I am mistaken- how quick do folks want or need it to be? Old tech- yes, slower than todays systems -of course, inferior performance? - demonstation of the evidence supporting that would be helpful!
Remember with a bit of his magic touch and some housekeeping in the software, Ken managed to convert the stock system to a semi sequential firing system by grouping similar cylinders and applying more or less advance to each group and let the system self optimise.
05-01-2020, 12:04 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
Dyno may not lie, except under torture, of course. Unfortunately, dynos can't post directly here. People do.
For a street car, I don't see it a realistic possibility that one could replace all the stock EZK + LH functionality with an aftermarket ECU with total cost of $3k. Cost accounting systems also don't lie, except under torture. Unfortunately, cost accounting systems can't post directly here. People do.
For a street car, I don't see it a realistic possibility that one could replace all the stock EZK + LH functionality with an aftermarket ECU with total cost of $3k. Cost accounting systems also don't lie, except under torture. Unfortunately, cost accounting systems can't post directly here. People do.
05-01-2020, 12:28 PM
#57
Developer
Oh boy. i would love to answer and I will. Let me get my PPP application for my employees done first, and I will come back to this.
Usually, when I hear a defense of a 1980's engine management, it is accompanied with how it can be "just" as good" after you modify the MAF, or change from a hot wire sensor to a hot film sensor, or your replace the MAF entirely with a more modern unit, and so on. I cannot say that all or any of these things do or do not improve the old Bosch EMS as I have no experience with those modifications. But, they are just that: MODIFICATIONS.
Those mods are above and beyond the mere connection of a Sharktuner and the tweaking of the software MAP/settings. That's what I have been trying to say. The Shaktuner works, wherein "works" means it does what it was designed to do. And since John Speake and i went through the process of setting me up a s a Sharktuner dealer years ago, (although I decided at the end of our talks not to become a dealer and to go a different direction towards modern stand-alone systems) John has improved his product even more. But what I have been trying to say is that the mere application of the tuner does not suddenly enable the old hardware with new capabilities or speeds.
Now, I am out of time. Let me get my work done and come back to this if you guys are still interested in what I have to say.
PS: who among you are typing right now on a 1986-era chipset running DOS because its just as fast or "just as good" as a modern PC with modern hardware and software? Sarcastic, I know. But it illustrates one of my points.
Usually, when I hear a defense of a 1980's engine management, it is accompanied with how it can be "just" as good" after you modify the MAF, or change from a hot wire sensor to a hot film sensor, or your replace the MAF entirely with a more modern unit, and so on. I cannot say that all or any of these things do or do not improve the old Bosch EMS as I have no experience with those modifications. But, they are just that: MODIFICATIONS.
Those mods are above and beyond the mere connection of a Sharktuner and the tweaking of the software MAP/settings. That's what I have been trying to say. The Shaktuner works, wherein "works" means it does what it was designed to do. And since John Speake and i went through the process of setting me up a s a Sharktuner dealer years ago, (although I decided at the end of our talks not to become a dealer and to go a different direction towards modern stand-alone systems) John has improved his product even more. But what I have been trying to say is that the mere application of the tuner does not suddenly enable the old hardware with new capabilities or speeds.
Now, I am out of time. Let me get my work done and come back to this if you guys are still interested in what I have to say.
PS: who among you are typing right now on a 1986-era chipset running DOS because its just as fast or "just as good" as a modern PC with modern hardware and software? Sarcastic, I know. But it illustrates one of my points.
05-01-2020, 12:41 PM
#58
Developer
For a street car, I don't see it a realistic possibility that one could replace all the stock EZK + LH functionality with an aftermarket ECU with total cost of $3k.
I don't recall ever saying that every car needs to rip out its LH/EZK system and go to a stand-alone. Of course not. Not all cars require it. But, if you have a bad LH and it needs to be rebuilt/serviced, and you note that your wiring harness is also crispy (this is a combination that is unsurprisingly common) - then you have just entered the cost range where you might as well go with all new stuff and benefit from the 40 years of technology advances it provides.
05-01-2020, 12:54 PM
#59
Nordschleife Master
After you figure in the cost of a new wiring harness for your stock 928 (currently being discussed by Kroon at coming to market at about $1600 - and to my knowledge, not available from Porsche) the cost of an aftermarket stand-alone EMS with its new wiring harness may be less than fixing the old stuff. Megasquirt systems are open-sourced and relatively inexpensive, just for one example.
I don't recall ever saying that every car needs to rip out its LH/EZK system and go to a stand-alone. Of course not. Not all cars require it. But, if you have a bad LH and it needs to be rebuilt/serviced, and you note that your wiring harness is also crispy (this is a combination that is unsurprisingly common) - then you have just entered the cost range where you might as well go with all new stuff and benefit from the 40 years of technology advances it provides.
I don't recall ever saying that every car needs to rip out its LH/EZK system and go to a stand-alone. Of course not. Not all cars require it. But, if you have a bad LH and it needs to be rebuilt/serviced, and you note that your wiring harness is also crispy (this is a combination that is unsurprisingly common) - then you have just entered the cost range where you might as well go with all new stuff and benefit from the 40 years of technology advances it provides.
There’s still the issue that I believe fully functioning aftermarket ECU conversion for a street car is not going to happen for $3k in the actual, real, physical world.
05-01-2020, 02:27 PM
#60
Three Wheelin'
i'm following with pure interest !
If i may recall my '91 !!! boosted 850i... this is really old school....chips out the ECU's , erase with UV light , write a new version in a nowadays very difficult "language" , mount and try… if i see what they "can" do on modern systems... plug in and PC playing….real time logging .. etc. No matter what , 35 years have indeed made a big difference !
If i may recall my '91 !!! boosted 850i... this is really old school....chips out the ECU's , erase with UV light , write a new version in a nowadays very difficult "language" , mount and try… if i see what they "can" do on modern systems... plug in and PC playing….real time logging .. etc. No matter what , 35 years have indeed made a big difference !