1978 in rough condition - Can this be restored?
01-20-2021, 09:01 PM
#61
Drifting
To summarize a bit:
Porsche
"Pay Now or Pay Later, either way you'll PAY"
Porsche
"Pay Now or Pay Later, either way you'll PAY"
01-20-2021, 09:30 PM
#62
My point-of-reference on early 5-speed cars is the Minerva Blue restoration project that Rob and William did a few years ago. They have he distinct advantage of nearby access to the gold mine of the used bits warehouse of 928 International, plus a good selection of nearby craftsmen to do the interior, painting and other serious recovery stuff. The two of them spent months of spare time getting everything correct. As Greg mentions, a real restoration means -everything- gets touched. In their case, the body and tub was completely disassembled and stripped. It was straightened and painted, then they reassembled the car with new/restored/cleaned/rebushed/replated/reupholstered everything.
More of my cynical side: Many cars get parked because of something that memory has made small, like your fuel pump excuse. Maybe it was a failed fuel pump, but how many people park a car like that outside for want to a ~~$150 fuel pump alone? The fuel pump, the "straw that broke the camel's back", stick s out in foggy memory as the cause of the parking. Your mission is to find all the other straws in the mechanicals and running gear. If the engine has been sitting a while with old coolant in it, plan on a full teardown and some corrosion repairs as part of the refurbishment process. The gearbox is a big unknown, since you can't drive it. The CIS k-jetronic injection can be simple or a nightmare. More often a challenge since the car has been sitting and fuel system is filthy. You mentions the differential, which is an odd failure for the relatively low miles on the car. What failed? The rust on the quarters is caused by water that accumulated in the window channels. A good body metal man will recreate just that corroded section in steel and weld it in, although that prep'd half-quarter for USD$112 is amazingly inexpensive. Let the body shop put it on, as a fraction of an inch mispatch/misalignment makes a big difference a couple feet away. In my experience, the small piece will be a lot easier/cheaper/safer to replace than the cheaper large factory panel. Others are much better at this stuff.
Next thoughts: What do you want the car for? If it's to satisfy a long-time lust for these, then of course you should proceed. After scouring the market to make sure this one is the way you want to get there. Do you want one that's OK for running errands, or one that you can travel reliably in for long distances, or one that is suitable for driving the wife or date to the country club, or one that will turn heads when you drive past, or maybe one that will be a 95+ point car at a serious judging event. Oh yeah, that was really a question, so it needs a "?" at the end... And of course, what's your tolerance for investing? It's going to be a lot of spending vs. investing, as the market is not that kind to cars that are still 'projects' when you try and sell them. You'll get the value back from the investment by driving and enjoying it. The market is firming up on the best examples, but in my estimateion they have a ways to go before full restorations make real economic sense.
Advice as always is to look at your desire and your budget, and go shop for the best example you can afford. Even a good documented running example is going to need more after you buy it. It is, after all, almost 45 years old. So many little things. Find one you love, already in the condition you want it, and just buy it. It will almost undoubtedly be way cheaper and faster than buying a somewhat mystery project car and praying. In my casual opinion anyway.
Good luck with your quest!
More of my cynical side: Many cars get parked because of something that memory has made small, like your fuel pump excuse. Maybe it was a failed fuel pump, but how many people park a car like that outside for want to a ~~$150 fuel pump alone? The fuel pump, the "straw that broke the camel's back", stick s out in foggy memory as the cause of the parking. Your mission is to find all the other straws in the mechanicals and running gear. If the engine has been sitting a while with old coolant in it, plan on a full teardown and some corrosion repairs as part of the refurbishment process. The gearbox is a big unknown, since you can't drive it. The CIS k-jetronic injection can be simple or a nightmare. More often a challenge since the car has been sitting and fuel system is filthy. You mentions the differential, which is an odd failure for the relatively low miles on the car. What failed? The rust on the quarters is caused by water that accumulated in the window channels. A good body metal man will recreate just that corroded section in steel and weld it in, although that prep'd half-quarter for USD$112 is amazingly inexpensive. Let the body shop put it on, as a fraction of an inch mispatch/misalignment makes a big difference a couple feet away. In my experience, the small piece will be a lot easier/cheaper/safer to replace than the cheaper large factory panel. Others are much better at this stuff.
Next thoughts: What do you want the car for? If it's to satisfy a long-time lust for these, then of course you should proceed. After scouring the market to make sure this one is the way you want to get there. Do you want one that's OK for running errands, or one that you can travel reliably in for long distances, or one that is suitable for driving the wife or date to the country club, or one that will turn heads when you drive past, or maybe one that will be a 95+ point car at a serious judging event. Oh yeah, that was really a question, so it needs a "?" at the end... And of course, what's your tolerance for investing? It's going to be a lot of spending vs. investing, as the market is not that kind to cars that are still 'projects' when you try and sell them. You'll get the value back from the investment by driving and enjoying it. The market is firming up on the best examples, but in my estimateion they have a ways to go before full restorations make real economic sense.
Advice as always is to look at your desire and your budget, and go shop for the best example you can afford. Even a good documented running example is going to need more after you buy it. It is, after all, almost 45 years old. So many little things. Find one you love, already in the condition you want it, and just buy it. It will almost undoubtedly be way cheaper and faster than buying a somewhat mystery project car and praying. In my casual opinion anyway.
Good luck with your quest!
I agree with everything Dr. B wrote here. Especially the point about is the 928 "to satisfy a long-time lust"? The level of restoration needed for this one, IMO, is greater than what would qualify a car for the I've-always-been-curious-about-the-928-and-am-just-interested-in-getting-my-feet-wet buyer. For example, if your real passion is to own and restore a Citroen SM but you just haven't come across the right one and instead figured in the mean time you would check out the 928s, then my advice is wait on the Citroen (or whatever poster car it is) and in the mean time look for another 928 that's ready to drive and only needs "minor" TLC.
01-20-2021, 09:37 PM
#63
Rennlist
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One of the really absurd things is that we talk about 928's in terms of an "investment".
The notion of any motor vehicle being an investment is almost absurd....motor vehicles that go up in value are few and far between.
Yet, it is obvious that the 928 market, at some point in time, will support $100,000+ restorations....just like the 911 market currently does.
Will all of the pieces required be available then?
I think that the "smart money" is restoring these cars, right now, while there are still parts available and people that have the required technical knowledge still exist.
__________________
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
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01-21-2021, 04:04 AM
#64
Three Wheelin'
The '78 wreck i bought for some parts /fun time had a rebuilt engine ... but at 230.000 km in 1999/2000.... soon afterwards crashed and kept in a attic for 20 years....i knew that car sitting there all the time. If not crashed, it could probably had by now + 300.0000 km.
btw, it's #00978 .... so build in '77 not that long after this #00924. Pity , neither is #00928 ....
What i do know, on those oldtimer cars , it isn't difficult to disable the odometer ( if not broken ) ....or have a spare replacing it . Was a common fraud here with 911's , so easy to have a spare mounted and when selling , putting back the original odo meter with same mileage as bought ....
01-21-2021, 09:51 AM
#65
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strange that a car with only 70.000 km already needed a rebuilt engine.....
The '78 wreck i bought for some parts /fun time had a rebuilt engine ... but at 230.000 km in 1999/2000.... soon afterwards crashed and kept in a attic for 20 years....i knew that car sitting there all the time. If not crashed, it could probably had by now + 300.0000 km.
btw, it's #00978 .... so build in '77 not that long after this #00924. Pity , neither is #00928 ....
What i do know, on those oldtimer cars , it isn't difficult to disable the odometer ( if not broken ) ....or have a spare replacing it . Was a common fraud here with 911's , so easy to have a spare mounted and when selling , putting back the original odo meter with same mileage as bought ....
The '78 wreck i bought for some parts /fun time had a rebuilt engine ... but at 230.000 km in 1999/2000.... soon afterwards crashed and kept in a attic for 20 years....i knew that car sitting there all the time. If not crashed, it could probably had by now + 300.0000 km.
btw, it's #00978 .... so build in '77 not that long after this #00924. Pity , neither is #00928 ....
What i do know, on those oldtimer cars , it isn't difficult to disable the odometer ( if not broken ) ....or have a spare replacing it . Was a common fraud here with 911's , so easy to have a spare mounted and when selling , putting back the original odo meter with same mileage as bought ....
01-21-2021, 11:19 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
I went to see that car three and a half years ago. It cries out to be saved. It seems to me there was a spare transmission with the car (he told me he could only find a differential included with the transmission), if that is so it is worth a couple of thousand if it is good.
I have a '78 euro project and I can tell you it is possible to do it a lot cheaper than some people are suggesting if you want a 928 that runs and can always be improved, but you can drive from time to time while improving it.
Are you in Quebec? It is always useful to include your location in your profile. If you are interested PM me and we can talk about my experience... or check out my thread here:
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...-s-thread.html
I have a '78 euro project and I can tell you it is possible to do it a lot cheaper than some people are suggesting if you want a 928 that runs and can always be improved, but you can drive from time to time while improving it.
Are you in Quebec? It is always useful to include your location in your profile. If you are interested PM me and we can talk about my experience... or check out my thread here:
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...-s-thread.html
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drooman (01-22-2021)
01-22-2021, 01:39 PM
#68
Rennlist Member
As for some good reading (biased), look at my (3) “official” threads, as I detail my adventures through the (3) that I am restoring.
1978
1979 euro
1982
its slow going, but rewarding. I have self diagnosed OCD (or maybe it’s ADD) so (3) projects were perfect for me.
good luck..
1978
1979 euro
1982
its slow going, but rewarding. I have self diagnosed OCD (or maybe it’s ADD) so (3) projects were perfect for me.
good luck..
01-23-2021, 12:39 AM
#69
Rennlist Member
As for some good reading (biased), look at my (3) “official” threads, as I detail my adventures through the (3) that I am restoring.
1978
1979 euro
1982
its slow going, but rewarding. I have self diagnosed OCD (or maybe it’s ADD) so (3) projects were perfect for me.
good luck..
1978
1979 euro
1982
its slow going, but rewarding. I have self diagnosed OCD (or maybe it’s ADD) so (3) projects were perfect for me.
good luck..
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...ue-thread.html
I think Ron's car described in this long thread was in worse condition than the one being discussed...
01-25-2021, 06:14 PM
#70
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Yes... read this thread
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...ue-thread.html
I think Ron's car described in this long thread was in worse condition than the one being discussed...
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...ue-thread.html
I think Ron's car described in this long thread was in worse condition than the one being discussed...
When you went to see the car, did you take a look at the fender wells? What about the aesthetic condition of the mechanical components?
I'm scrolling through Ron's thread. Holy **** that car was rusted. I'm hoping the 928 from Nominingue is in better shape.
-Alex
01-25-2021, 09:34 PM
#71
Rennlist Member
Hey Grant,
When you went to see the car, did you take a look at the fender wells? What about the aesthetic condition of the mechanical components?
I'm scrolling through Ron's thread. Holy **** that car was rusted. I'm hoping the 928 from Nominingue is in better shape.
-Alex
When you went to see the car, did you take a look at the fender wells? What about the aesthetic condition of the mechanical components?
I'm scrolling through Ron's thread. Holy **** that car was rusted. I'm hoping the 928 from Nominingue is in better shape.
-Alex
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/x15zao7i7...a5TDCkZwa?dl=0
The mechanics looked normal for an old car that had not been cleaned for a long time, nothing overly scary that I noticed.
01-26-2021, 07:06 AM
#72
Nordschleife Master
I didn't look that closely. You can access the pictures I took here
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/x15zao7i7...a5TDCkZwa?dl=0
The mechanics looked normal for an old car that had not been cleaned for a long time, nothing overly scary that I noticed.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/x15zao7i7...a5TDCkZwa?dl=0
The mechanics looked normal for an old car that had not been cleaned for a long time, nothing overly scary that I noticed.
That car is very far gone.. but looks to be largely original. People restoring early cars would probably pay $4k for the car just for parts to fix their project IMO. I'm sure that radio is worth good money alone.
If you wanted to turn it into a project, its a lot of project, and whether it costs you $3.5 or $4k to get into is irrelevant, as its a $40k job even if you can do your own mechanical labour.
The only way that car makes sense is if you can do your own paint/body as well, and have a lot of spare time
01-26-2021, 12:00 PM
#73
Rennlist Member
Oh boy - seeing the more detailed pictures now, I'd pass on it altogether. Not worth even $1500 in my view. That car is very far gone, and that pascha, which is really what gives it value, looks like toast.
01-26-2021, 02:39 PM
#75
Rennlist Member
I wouldn't have the owner try to start it, why bother?
Its going to need a complete fuel system flush and likely replacement of a bunch of parts, so why have this guy fiddling around with it? I'd be afraid he would be in there making things worse. He doesn't seem like the most knowledgeable or responsible type of owner. If you're concerned about the state of the engine, maybe a compression test, or leak down test.
There are a bunch of great threads here about resurrecting 928's that have been sitting for some time, I'd do some searching, bookmark some of those threads. If you end up buying it, make your project list and start methodically working your way through it. Pretty much everything you would need to do has been well documented here, if not, as you're seeing, the members are happy to chime in with help.
I recently brought my '88 S4 back to life after it sat in my garage for 10 years. It was in great shape, I stored it properly, but I still did a lot of work on it before I even tried to start it.
Some search results that might be useful:
"first start": https://rennlist.com/forums/search.p...rchid=39889270
"sitting": https://rennlist.com/forums/search.php?searchid=39889299
Good luck, it sounds like a cool car and would be a fun project to nibble away at.
Its going to need a complete fuel system flush and likely replacement of a bunch of parts, so why have this guy fiddling around with it? I'd be afraid he would be in there making things worse. He doesn't seem like the most knowledgeable or responsible type of owner. If you're concerned about the state of the engine, maybe a compression test, or leak down test.
There are a bunch of great threads here about resurrecting 928's that have been sitting for some time, I'd do some searching, bookmark some of those threads. If you end up buying it, make your project list and start methodically working your way through it. Pretty much everything you would need to do has been well documented here, if not, as you're seeing, the members are happy to chime in with help.
I recently brought my '88 S4 back to life after it sat in my garage for 10 years. It was in great shape, I stored it properly, but I still did a lot of work on it before I even tried to start it.
Some search results that might be useful:
"first start": https://rennlist.com/forums/search.p...rchid=39889270
"sitting": https://rennlist.com/forums/search.php?searchid=39889299
Good luck, it sounds like a cool car and would be a fun project to nibble away at.