The Forgotten On

That engine was so close to being trashed with all the issues it has from poor past repairs.

Good thing the dealer had sense to catch it in time and send it to you so the client wasn't left high and dry with a junk engine.

I dread the though of what the heads in my 89 look like with 217k miles.... swiss cheese?

Darklands

Gerade bei #eBayKleinanzeigen gefunden. Wie findest du das?

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-...nt=app_android

An example from here:
Barn find, 10.000 € maintanance from seller
He wrote, car runs but needs maybe headgaskets.
So what surprises has the engine for the New owner?

Zirconocene

@Darklands : Der Anzeige finde ich relativ billig zu sein. Es is fast nicht zu glauben, besdoners mit den Preisen die Mann hier in Amiland sieht.

These threads give me so much anxiety; I just want my babies to be healthy and like that example in the eBay link, it will be near impossible to tell what is lurking.

Thanks all for sharing.

GuardsRedHammerhead

Hey, at least the dealer looked at the car.

Fields Porsche(formerly Brumos) told me that they will not even check-in a 928. Won't schedule it.

The Forgotten On

That sucks. It's getting harder and harder to find anyone who will touch a 928 as the people who do are retiring or passing left and right.

FredR

Isn't that just the case! Up until a few years ago there was only one mechanic at the local dealers who I would let loose on my 928. He took ill and retired to his home in Kashmere. Sadly he passed away shortly after retiring.

Nowadays I try to do all my own work. If anything major crops up I have a good contact whose workshop I can use if necessary and supervise his workforce assuming I am not up to it.

The Forgotten On

I try to do all my own work as well within reason (cannot do machining for example ) But I got lucky in that my local dealer services 928s regularly in case anything beyond my abilities crops up.

I'd love to take it to Greg but he's a bit busy right now

928NOOBIE

Maybe a dumb question, but are there certain years/models of 928's that have greater risk of head gasket failure/damage to the heads than others? I am just really surprised the engine in first post only has 130k on it. Is it from lack of maintenance of the coolant system? Sitting for a long time and not being driven enough? That's just not very many miles to me to have that kind of impact/failed headgaskets...

Cruella is probably pushing 200k...her odo broke at 150 and I've been way too lazy to tackle removing the pod....but it runs great and isn't over heating...as long as the cap is fresh and it's holding the proper factory pressure, it can run around in pretty much any temperature.

When I changed her coolant (Pentosin NF) and put new thermostat/rear seal, the thermostat cavity and what little passageways you could see looked completely brand new. I know that may not mean anything....but the car was well maintained by the previous owner, an engineer so he had the resources to keep it up...oil change every 3k...he even sprung for a brand new factory climate control head (almost $3k if I remember the number on the receipt) which we all probably know the reason why...

But back to my question....my car runs really well; I'm hesitant to dig down and pull the heads while it is...I'm sure I'm going to be told I'm playing with fire...but if I get a blown head gasket and shut it down immediately and have it towed back to the shop I work with....I know there would very well be antifreeze and oil mixed together, yuck....maybe that's enough of a reason why right there.... but would that pretty much be the difference...or could a head gasket actually blowing cause more damage?

I don't have the experience or facilities to do the job myself and there are certain things I refuse to learn how to do on my engine...if I had a practice engine and I could go through the process end to end...learn the little gotchas and tricks....maybe...but bottom line is it's going to set me back a pretty penny....how many more pennies could it cost me if I waited till she blew one?

Grateful as always for the wisdom and honesty.

GregBBRD

According to my friends who work at Porsche Classic dealerships, they can not refuse any Porsche brought in for service. One of these dealerships got some severe objections regarding them working on a couple of 959's. Porsche apparently thinks these vehicles must be returned to Germany for any major service work. The dealership pointed out their requirement to "take in" any Porsche for service and Porsche begrudgingly supplied the needed parts.

I'm not entirely positive the dealership the owner took this GT refused to do the job, as he had an estimate north of 60K. It's been many months, getting this car into our schedule and then getting it shipped, but as I recall, the mechanic that had worked on his car, in the past, suggested that they might not be the proper place to do this job.

I simply smiled and wondered where they were planning on getting the pistons, if it needed to be bored oversize. (They had seen cylinder scratches with a bore scope and thought this was the major problem.)
While I purchased these when Porsche had them and put them in my inventory, Porsche apparently does not...unless they have a "hidden inventory" for their dealers.

At this point, given that the abrasive media has been run completely through the engine, I can salvage the block, if I bore it oversize....but not much more.The crankshaft is rough...and .0005" worn in the load direction (thus also "out of round"), the oil pump is trash, and the pistons are trash. Actually, it is a bit difficult to find many pieces that are usable....maybe the oil pick-up and pan.

Although this is a disaster for the client, right now, I'm going to guess that we build either a 5.8 or a 6.5 out of the ancillary pieces (this was discussed as a possibility, if the engine had severe damage, months ago.)

This means, instead of this being a disaster, it will turn out to be a fantastic (and rare) experience, for the owner, in the end.

Lucky guy!

FredR

One thing that strikes me looking at your gasket photos is that they give the impression that the fire rings are as wide as the wall thickness of the cylinders [there or thereabout].

Is this an actual reality, an optical illusion or do I need to visit the opticians?

Whatever the case the head gasket has to ensure that coolant or the evil brew that develops between the gasket and the head must be kept away from the stainless fire rings. If an electrolytic solution comes into contact with the fire ring that is in direct contact with the block a galvanic cell will be formed and that in turn will use the block as a sacrificial electrode and it will eat away at the block material in some way thus my query about corrosion at the top of the cylinder.

From your description it sounds as though something has been going on in that regard albeit it may not be serious. I saw one engine here many years ago that looked as though mice has been chewing away at the top of the cylinders.

GregBBRD

I've taken apart many engines with over 200,000 miles, with head gaskets better than these.
Maintenance, in terms of changing the coolant regularly. is definitely part of the longevity equation.

I'm not sure I've ever had a 928 towed in with a steamy, coolant everywhere, blown head gasket.

It seems like the problem is usually "coolant migration" where the coolant will seep under the fire ring (when the engine is cold) and there will be a hydraulic event when the engine is turned over, the next time.

Usually, these initial hydraulic events are not terminal, if the owner realizes there is something wrong and quits attempting to turn the engine over.

However, if the owner persists, sometimes a cylinder will "split" from the hydraulic pressure, requiring some major engine work/replacement.

Your engine might have any issues, for another 100,000 miles. However, time is a huge issue. Our head gaskets have been marinating in various types and ages of coolant, for a long time. Deterioration is very common.

Awareness of normal operation is important to preventing a disaster.

Any kind of abnormal temperature reading should be investigated, immediately.
If there is a "minor seepage", a "steam cleaned" spark plug is a great indicator.
And never force an engine that is having an issue with cranking resistance to turn over. Pull spark plugs and then crank it over. If coolant blows out of the spark plug hole, either call your mechanic or get your tools in order.

Billu

So, what percentage of engines do you see with powder coating and without residual engine damage?

Speedtoys

I got to spend some time with the manager of the PCNA/ATL Classics restoration shop, and asked about NLA parts, and he said if they can me made they just order them. He showed me a 356 where the owner didnt want oversize pistons (or something like that)..so they had them made..amongst other things.

It didnt seem like it's a problem..just one of how blank the check is...and in that case it had an extra long line to write the number.

A Certified Classics Dealer...just has someone that took the classes on staff that can recognize a distributor cap and rotor and the room to dedicate to it..somewhat.

And I think service -vs- restoration is where a Classics shop may be able to pick & choose what they do. Classics has some latitude on what they take in.

GregBBRD

Way too high....

The percentage of these engines that people are spending dollars on to improve the looks is pretty small, at our shop. We do more work increasing reliability and function issues than cosmetic work. Actually, if someone comes in and just wants us to do the intake and valve covers (and they are not one of our regulars), we are more likely to decline than to do this job. The time and cost to do this job correctly is high...but takes way more time than we can bill for. Furthermore we are so incredibly busy that the "down time" for an intake system/valve cover redo is difficult to justify. And my "local" powder coating companies are virtually brain dead....even if we spend the time to "burp" them for every single job. (I've had 6 intakes ruined from the idiots sandblasting holes...even though we tell them not to use sand!)
For years, I kept several sets of valve covers in inventory, so we could "swap" the pieces out. However, it got to the point where they would "ruin" multiple manifolds all at the same time...and I got mentally exhausted trying to deal with this. (See note *, below.)
Whenever a new vehicle with a freshly powder coated manifold comes into our shop, we certainly mentally make a note of the possibility of engine damage could be an issue. While we don't immediately start checking for damage, if there are any complaints that could be issues with media debris, we are certainly looking there, before we waste too much time.

When I have an intake done that was bead blasted, I allow 6 hours to clean the intake and manifolds and re-assemble the manifold, once I get it back. At my shop rate...that a bunch of dollars for cleaning...and I'm painfully aware of that.

If we are doing a complete rebuild, we certainly do a bunch of cosmetic work. We have more time to have this job done properly, when the engine is apart.

The last manifold I had done I sent to Dr. Blast in Texas. He uses plastic media, instead of abrasive media. It was very expensive, once you add in shipping back and forth.
However, since I didn't have to spend hours cleaning the manifold, the actual cost was probably close to having one done locally and me fussing with it, once it came back.
And the color that he had been using looked awful to us (looks like grey primer) and we paid extra to have "our" color mixed and put into his powder coaters inventory.
...And the manifold and valve covers were beautiful....I paid extra to get the valve covers smooth. (There's a thread about a GTS engine we just did, going somewhere, around the front of this Forum, with pictures.)

This whole "engine damage from media debris" is incredibly expensive to repair.
Paying another $500 or even another $1000 to make sure this never occurs is literally a rounding error, when fixing an engine with kind of damage.

(*) I've been too busy to send off a "group" of manifolds/valve covers off to Dr. Blast to be done, so I can have parts in inventory, once again....but I certainly have this in my plans and will do so, soon.

928NOOBIE

Thank you Greg for the info and good timing. I changed the WR7DC's out for the WR5's about 2 or 3 weeks ago. Everything coming out was an even gray...not too light, not too dark, and very consistent across all cylinders except for the two on drivers side closest to firewall...they had some oil deposits on threads but the part with the electrode still looked about same as others. I gapped the new ones at .813...I also checked the gaps on the ones that came out...all were way too big...I had 2 you could even see daylight through with the feeler inserted...they were maybe 7 - 8 years old and I had not gapped them when they were installed. The new plugs (made proudly in Russia....it's stamped all over the place so they have to be proud of it) were supposed to be .8 but they were all on the small side; even counting the extra .013....they were too tight to just have to move a hundredth of a mm.

With a set of properly gapped correct heat range plugs (yes Ken I know....) we saw improvement in smoothness, power and power delivery across the rpm band. Very pleased with the results.

if there is anyone running stock plugs with Ken's chips you will see a positive difference when changing to recommended heat range. Go old school and gap them yourself too; the gaps on what came out of the car have me decided I'll never install a set of plugs in anything that I don't gap myself first.