hacker-pschorr

Really?

LH $525
https://928srus.com/products/lh-ezk-...cbb54ad0&_ss=r

MAF $449
https://928srus.com/products/928-606...05432f01&_ss=r

Dampers $285
https://928srus.com/products/copy-of...c1210fc4&_ss=r

FPR $285
https://928srus.com/products/928-110...bbcc6f1c&_ss=r

Fuel Lines $500
Ok, I guessed, didn't feel like looking them all up. I make my own for less than $50 anyway

Ignition Wires $389
https://928srus.com/products/9286020...15afdf26&_ss=r

Spark Plugs $20 - Ok, yea got me here, should be $28
https://928srus.com/products/copy-of...8e766a84&_ss=r

Fuel Injectors $200 ($25 each for servicing)

MAF Boot $84 - Didn't find this on Roger's site & guessed - here is is for $77
https://www.design911.co.uk/porsche/...r-intake-boot/

CPS $48
https://928srus.com/products/copy-of...f4242c24&_ss=r

Hall $126
https://928srus.com/products/944-606...add52923&_ss=r

Flappy - again, guessed since I wasn't sure which part we were actually talking about.
Actuator $86.95
https://928srus.com/products/928-110...cb0965fd&_ss=r
Solenoid $143
https://928srus.com/products/911-618...cb0965fd&_ss=r

TB Bearings $100
No idea what I actually looked here, but here's the flappy bearings for $13.75
https://928srus.com/products/hk10122...75deb91b&_ss=r

TPS $275 - whoops, looked up the S3 one, it's $325, not in stock - see other thread
https://928srus.com/products/928-606...e57be2d3&_ss=r

ICV $96 - I rounded up a nickle
https://928srus.com/products/9286061...d7e8822e&_ss=r

PS big hose $200 - rounded up a dollar
https://928srus.com/products/copy-of...8aec3d75&_ss=r

Oil filler gasket $10
https://928srus.com/products/9281077...3087bfb2&_ss=r

Upper / Lower radiator hoses $50 - Yea, looked up the incorrect uppper, should have been $139. Why are these done with an intake refresh anyway? It's part of a TB job.
https://928srus.com/products/copy-of...588ab583&_ss=r
https://928srus.com/products/928-106...588ab583&_ss=r
I only replace these if they look like they need to be replaced. I've honestly not replaced one in over 20 years and in that time I've purchased 3 928's LOL. Seeing new ones leak is all the reason I need to justify that.

T-Stat $50
https://928srus.com/products/9281061...13e41774&_ss=r


Going back to the point of scaring the living sh*t out of potential new owners, this is a job that you do ONCE and you are done (which does reinforce doing the refinish on the intake....) It's not like a TB job that you do every so often where the cost really starts to add up over a long period of ownership.
It's also something that doesn't have to be done ASAP either. I drove my 87 for a full season before touching anything, didn't feel like doing it and my other 928 was already apart.

I've also seen plenty of PC jobs look like trash & the risk of wiping out a motor. A good paint job will last longer than any of us will be on the planet and look just as good and cost $50.

Replacing everything with the kitchen sink "just because" is beyond asinine to me. Inspect the parts, replace as needed for a lot of these things. If the TPS checks out, put it back on. It could be a few years old, and you could put on a brand new one that is a dud in 50 miles. Hal sensor? Why the hell would you replace that if the connector is in good shape and it's functioning? Same with the knock sensors? Thermostat? Toss it in a pot of water with a thermometer and watch it..... Again, I've seen plenty of new ones crap out after a few heat cycles.
Jeasus Christo, some of this stuff would put many shops out of business if they wrote up repair estimates like this.

If this is really what 928 shops are getting for these jobs, I seriously need to talk my shop owner into marketing to the 928 crowd. If they can be trusted to work on cars like a local 488 Pista they can certainly handle 928's just fine. Especially with me there.
My electrical expert makes one off harnesses for top pro racing teams I'm not allowed to name. The only reason why I haven't talked him into making 928 harnesses is I won't step on @SeanR 's toes.

....and to think I took sh*t on here years ago for suggestion cam and crank seals should be done with TB jobs.

ReDesign by FEATHER

Interestingly, there appears to be almost no mention of the TB a d WP issue in this thread.

worf928

I’m happy to get into the weeds on this. But, only on The Other Forum.

Yes. Really.

There’s a lot of context you are not providing for your choices.

Some examples:
- you need two dampers. And if you want Bosch dampers they are ~$600 each.
- you provide a link to one flappy bearing for $13.75. 928 Specialists has the kit of *10* bearings for the intake refresh and it’s less than $50.
- if you don’t need to replace Knock Sensors it’s because the last intake R&R wasn’t thorough.
- you don’t specify the outcome and quality goal

Schocki

TBF? See post #2.

Mrmerlin

NOTE for the paying customer.
The other thing that has not been mentioned is finding a skilled Technican that can do this work,
and getting a time slot/ shop time for the work to be performed.
( A DIY guy has the leisure to work at his own pace .)
Once a customer realizes that the mechanic and the car are both in the same location,
its is usually more cost effective for the customer to get everything done.
Once they can see what refreshed intake and cam cover set looks like,
most customers are onboard with doing it all at once,
so they dont have to pay for extra labor services,
As it reduces trips to the shop and getting a ride back home.

Most of my customers live more than an hour away and have been able to take a train home.
Or if they are lucky they get a ride from their house or Uber home.
NOTE the intake refresh can take up to a month to complete depending on what other issues are uncovered.

That said a DIY guy will also realize that once the top of the engine has been taken apart ,
many of the other systems are easily serviced since fuel lines and plug wires and coolant hoses are removed .
and some of these parts are required to be removed for intake or cam cover removal.

BTW I have never seen Original knock sensors on a 87, 88, 89
that did not have its wire insulation peeled off, and the connectors crumbling.
The V filled with oil from the leaking oil fill spout.
The Hall and the CPS connectors also with crumbling connector ends.
And spark plug wires that look like they came off the Hindenburg.

The GTS knock sensors are made of better materials so the insulation doesnt peel off,
but the sensors are degraded if they have been soaking in oil.

NOTE Painting the intake will not restore the injector bore diameter,
so thats another source for intake leaks.

Grit blasting the corroded cam covers will remove the corrosion in the gasket groove and spark plug sealing surfaces,
Fresh PC will give a nice smooth surface for the gaskets to properly seal.
NOTE without this, it will be hard to get a leak free seal from the cam gasket seals.
an oil filled plug well will ruin a new spark plug boot.

5 oil block off pins in the cam journals should also be installed if the originals have the rubber /pin combo.

carsRlife

How many of them had the issue with Thrust bearing? Did any of them experience engine failure even if they had the issue?

I read in 1988 they revised the following on the S4 models:
"Stronger torque tube with 3 mm thicker center shaft for automatic transmission. Pistons with strengthened skirt installed in February 1988. Oil drainage improved in piston skirts"

I assume the above means that the Thrust bearing issue only occurs in the 1987 models?

ReDesign by FEATHER

Yes, Ed did mention about the basic TB and WP needs, but that was in about post number 4, but no one had actually focused on those as being the problem in this case.

I bought an 88 S4 some years ago off the internet that was said to have a "knock in the engine." I bought it for about 2 or 3 thousand bucks and had it shipped to me. for another 1200 or 1500 dollars. What I found was that in the process of them getting it ready for shipment they trashed the LH computer. I had it rebuilt by Rich Andrade in Mese AZ, and when I installed it I found that the knock in the engine was not really in the engine but rather at the front of the engine. The Water Pump was totally failed. So I did the WP and TB and the car runs like a sewing machine. Does that sound a little like the present situation???

carsRlife

Yes this is priority. I will update you all this week after the shop inspects. I did order 20W50 high zinc engine oil as the previous owner used 5w40 synthetic
I was told that the engine would have a rough idle given the damage was irreversible, which I don't seem to have
I also didn't notice any metal on the oil / dipstick which I hope is another good sign

FredR

Quite the opposite if anything. The 28mm torque tube appears to be much more sensitive to the TBF issue but it can still happen on 25mm torque tubes. The problem with the 28mm tube is that they kitted it with only two support bearings presumably because the shaft is stiffer. The root cause of the problem in my opinion is fretting corrosion in the splines. This explains why it did not happen on new examples but took time to develop on vulnerable examples. I suspect that the problem happens because of conjoint but unrelated phenomena coming together. Areas of high humidity, drivers who push the envelope and possibly extremes of tolerances between the shaft and the coupling. Add to that GTS's with more torque perhaps? Any S4/GTS's running around with no TBF mitigation is just tempting fate. My S4 motor had the flexplate clamp slipping some 25 years ago. Porsche had no answer but a few drops of Loctite and my supervision stopped that issue- the clamp slipping was enough to snap the driveshaft due to the induced compressive load inducing vibrations that trashed the base of the taper. The S4 motor still powers my GTS today, it runs as strong as ever and the Loctite still holds the plot together to this day. If and when I have to do something with the drive shaft I have one of Constantine's wonderful Super clamps standing by to go in the rebuild- in the meanwhile I have it in a display cabinet in my TV room. 25 years ago I suggested on Rennlist that Porsche should have designed a taper clamp- the one fitted is outrageous given it has a single pinch bolt- at the very least they could have engineered it with two bolts -one either side of the clamp to better distribute the clamping forces generated - turned out Constantine was on the same wave length and had some good technical discussions whilst he was perfecting his design.

Bottom line when considering purchase of a 928 automatic history is everything. I do my own inlet manifold jobs so can do as I see fit. Timing belt/water pump jobs are generally not too difficult but then I have my own schedule when I do them. Our professional friends do not and they quite rightly take pride in what they do and do not want to leave anything to chance. You get what you pay for in life- simple as that. If you do not know the history one can easily end up paying more to get it running correctly than one did to purchase the thing. This is not being scare mongering it is a realistic evaluation. i have seen it a number of times here in Oman.

Oh- and sticking witch **** lubes into a car designed for 20w50 is just bonkers irrespective of ZDDP content - of course a deficit of ZDDP will do nothing for the cam lobes so another point to check out if such was the case. Apologies if any of the above has been posted already- probably has..

carsRlife

Thank you all for for the feedback and sharing your experiences. I'm going to be dropping the car off today and driving it at very low speeds to get it there. The shop is about 2-3 miles away
I'm going to share the video below with them to give them a picture of what to check for
Does someone have a better video or will this suffice? They are familiar with old German cars but I'm not sure how familiar they are with this issue
I will get the oil changed because I feel the car needs it and put on a set of old tires from my CLK55 that should fit the rear because the current tires have flat spots
The car has 255-40-17 on the rear and 225-45-17 on the front but they are over a decade old

You Tube

Petza914

Here's a step by step walkthrough from Frenzy last year done by our own MrMerlin

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zffui1...ature=youtu.be

carsRlife

The trip to the shop was a success. No lights etc on the dash in the short drive. I topped up the steering fluid as it was very low and drove cautiously. The oil pressure stays pretty much pegged at 5 and rarely comes down from what I noticed
Also got some white smoke on start up again and I do think the fuel in the car is over a year or more old at this point. Given it wasn't insured in the last 4 years I assume it hasn't gone far
Thankfully the shop owner himself had a 89 928S4 so he's familiar with the issue and says they'll look into with a scope.. I'm wondering if that alone would be good enough to judge if there's an issue or not?
I will also have the oil change done to see the condition of the oil itself and pray that the drain plug isn't gunked up as I hear that is a tell tale sign of TBF

carsRlife

Thank you for sharing!

kamaro

I'm not sure from where you guys are getting your prices, but $20K for intake refresh? .. that's McLaren F1 price scheme right there! .. I did the intake refresh to my '87 S4 last year and as I remember it was as follows :

- $399 to refresh my MAF
- $325 set of brand new injectors.
- ~$100 to replace the broken wire connectors, just a standard connectors, nothing fancy.
- $150 to crimp all new fuel hoses (using high quality EFI rated ones).
- $20 new air filter.
- $85 pair of new knock sensors.
- $150 good working used ICV.
- ~$200 replaced the cracked hoses under the intake.
- tested all of my fuel regulators/dampers and found them all to be working as they should.
- I did all the work myself so 0 labor cost.

so in total it was less than $1500 and the car is running beautifully.

Except the fuel lines, don't replace any part unless you are sure its broken, most of our 928s are not show queens, they are just normal cars that we enjoy to drive!

Gary Knox

None of my cars had TBF, as it was checked before purchase, and splines/clamp were Loctite treated shortly after purchase. ALL 32 valve engines with automatic transmissions are prone to TBF by Porsche design. Maintenance via checks, or improved clamping systems are the only solutions as far as I know.