m21sniper

There are a lot of honest and fearless cops out there. There really are.

Unfortunately, it's the (my guess) 10-15% of them that are total assses that screws it up for the rest of them...but especially for US.

SharkSkin

Thaddeus, yes, the big stuff matters, I do what I can. The small stuff matters too, I do what I can when faced with it.


Bigs, how else would one hope to establish a pattern of inappropriate behavior? Hope someone else reported it? Wait for the guy to maybe some day have an epiphany and realize that he's a dick? No. That amounts to laying down and being another sheeple. Cops are not above the law and it's my civic duty to report it if I see abuse of authority.

Ron_H

I am thinking about all of this.................hmmmm................I am reminded of what Rose Bird (former Ca Supreme Court justice) said. She said that the US Constitution is meant to protect the minority from pressure by the majority; the little guy from the group. Rose Bird was not the most popular Supreme Court justice, which proves her point: sometimes the majority don't act fairly or legally or reasonably when dealing with the individual, and she was voted out buy the same mob that she described as oppressive and unreasonable, and against which this country is pledged to act in support of individual rights. A sad statement IMO. Obviously I am in the minority of those who chose to vote on that issue. The point is that America is about just that freedom to stand up for righteous issues against a "mob" of emotionally driven pressure, no matter how insignificant that individual may be. Right is right. As a friend of Dave's would say: " A is A". The police work for us. Not the other way around. This is our government; we are not the government's slaves. This government is accountable to us. We should realize how blessed we are for possession of that situational right at this point in the history of the world. We are responsible if we allow tyranny to blossom and take root. Tyranny is like cancer cells in your body: always there but killed off by a healthy immune system. Ignore the little abuses at your peril. Wouldn't a good and responsible police officer be the first to agree?

Thaddeus

Well, cops can be capricious, cops can be unfair, but cops have to do things as much by instinct as much as reason and rules. They operate by hints and visual cues and I don't think anybody here would argue that they shouldn't or they wouldn't be able to do their jobs.

Way back in about 1980 I was a skinny wild-*** punk rocker and I got rousted ALL the time... traffic stops while driving, stopped while walking on the street, stops while skateboarding between classes on campus. Like once a week. And the thing is, I'm a pretty gentle and harmless sort, always have been; I just looked atrocious.

Got older, mellowed my image, suddenly: no stops, no hassles, not triggering that certain something in the local gendarmerie.

Was that fair? Hell no. Was it inevitable? Hell yes.

Stig's a young guy driving a hot, loud car. Guess what? He's going to get stopped once in awhile. That's the world. Deal.

tv

That's nice thaddeus, glad to hear you're no longer a wild *** punk, but the **** you describe was wrong even given your described appearance.

928SS doesn't sound a like a punk who needed an attitude adjustment. Ron hit the nail on the head, these guys in blue are public servants and you need to understand the real importance of what sniper is trying to get across about "founding fathers". Its not bull nor nerdy.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...6&q=chino+shot
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/airman_shooting

Thats just one little example. The "drug war" or something has really messed up law enforcement even though there have always been/are corrupt departments.

The in car cameras are good, more are needed in all areas that guys with guns and badges work.

That's it for me on this subject.

bigs

First of all, I agree completely with Ron. The police are my (our) employees. I don't disagree in principle with anything said here by you, Ron, or m21sniper.

I'm just willing to cut my employee (the cop) a little slack that maybe he had a bad day. In addition, I don't know all the details about this case. None of us do - not even Stig. He doesn't know if an APB came over the cop's radio earlier to be on the lookout for a perp in a stolen "sports car."

As to establishing a pattern of inappropriate behavior, the good citizens of Provo have done that. We had a local cop everyone knew as "Curly" (had a perm the size of an Afro on a white guy!) Curly would lurk around one of the local high schools basically all the time.

Young, exuberant high school kids excited to get home after the school day - or rushing to get to school on time in the morning - made for easy pickings. And high school kids couldn't afford the time or money to fight the citations. He had a sweet deal going! I'd imagine Curly was the force's super star ticket writer. He also made many stops for no apparent reason than to intimidate the kids.

Well, it didn't take long for his tactics to become well known among the local parents. They went to the Police Chief. Turns out that Curly didn't do much else in the law enforcement arena besides write up high school kids. And he didn't patrol anywhere else besides the high school.

Curly doesn't work for the Provo City Police Dept. anymore.

SharkSkin

OK, the cop who got in Andy's face, yeah, maybe he just had a bad day. No harm I suppose, all he did was make an *** of himself. However, he has NO RIGHT to take it out on others. Nobody has the right to take their bad day out on others. That said, it does happen and you can't get all indignant every time someone gets a little short with you, if you ever want to have the time to enjoy life.

As for the cops described by Woodsrider, Khaled, 928SS, and myself(Officer G) (oh, Curly too) all deserve at least a reprimand, maybe a few days off without pay, maybe the rest of their life off without pay. Curly sounds just like Officer G. ******** like them have no business wearing a badge, much less a gun.

928SS

good points. but IMO there is real harm in a bad encounter - minimally, a damaged reputation/ perception of the uniform. like it or not/right or wrong, most folks stereotype a race, gender, uniform, etc based upon limited contact or info. and it usually takes an extraordinary event to re-align a negative perception. given most LEO contact is w/traffic officers, they rep an entire force on a daily basis... add in the series of events like NO PD during katrina, and our socal "saviors" recently indicted for a 3yr reign of terror and home invasions, LASD/LAPD bad shootings, increased CHP "crackdowns" involving larger segments of our population, etc, etc... it'd be easier to get martha stewart off on dirty mismatched sheets than to raise public LEO opinion in some quarters

who cares about public opinion or a bad traffic stop? a grasshopper might ask... well, the Watts riots were sparked w/"just a traffic stop", fueled by lots of similar/prior LAPD abuses (and socio-economic stuff), that became the battle cry for nearly a decade of nationwide unrest. and the king riots also involved a rather ugly traffic arrest which resulted in 3 days of multi-city destruction and more unrest nationwide.

so IMO, traffic cops have a major responsibility NOT to do anything that results in negative public opinon (or that starts a riot). the consquences are staggering, and to see cops that don't get that/dont care even for a moment is rather amazing to me.

and no, I"m not advocating a riot for stig (unless he's giving away dates w/his hotties) ha!

bott63

A society that makes war against its police, had better learn to make friends with its criminals!

m21sniper

Yeah cause you're really saving the world from tyranny when you pull over a speeder.

SharkSkin

No argument from me... but without proof, minimally a witness or two, there is just no point in my trying, IMHO. Otherwise, the guy taking the report is just seeing me as another anonymous whiner, report destined for the circular file because the cop was making a legit bust. That may even be the way these things check out a lot of the time. Bottom line, I don't waste my time unless I think there's a good chance it will stick. If I'm going to risk reprisals I don't want it to be for nothing.

I guess that what I was trying to say in my previous post is that there are times when it's best to suck it up and move on, and times when something has to be done. I tend to draw that line at the point where something likely CAN be done.

SharkSkin

A police organization that make war against the populace is a Tyrant that must be resisted.

Ron_H

Tyrant: 1) an absolute ruler who governs arbitraritly without costitutional or other restrictions, esp. one in ancient Greece; 2) a ruler who exercises power in a harsh, cruel manner; oppressor; 3) a tyrannical or despotic person.

The name saddam comes to mind, for some strange reason.

John Struthers

True story.
Eleven years ago our custom on Sunday was to load our predetermined share of grub/drinks
and head over to Sharon's -my wife- parents' house to barbeque and kibbutz with her 3 sisters,
one brother their spouses/kids and parents for about 6-8 hours.
One particular Sunday Sharon was fussing with her hair and we were running a little late.
I had cracked my first beer and, consequently, she HAD TO DRIVE! She was speeding a little
on the 4 lane -65mph- and I cautioned her TWICE, she being a woman and perfect driver, of course,
bitched at me twice in return.
She was doing about 4mph over when I spotted a cop coming the other way, about a mile off. I warned Sharon again, and she bitched at me again. The cop passed, crossed the dirt median amidst much dust and burning rubber -he almost rolled it-.
When the lights came on we pulled over, he jumped out of his car and his hat IMMEDIATELY blew off in the wind ... he gave chase... got his hat returned to the car got his ticket book and chased his hat across the highway a second time... he was pissed!
He, loudly, requested the drivers license, insurance, and registration. I leaned over made
eye contact with him and told him the registration was in the glove box -odd they don't usually ask for it in Texas-. Sharon said the license and insurance was in her purse in the back of the car -
our Taurus wagon-. Sharon told Zack to unbuckle and get her purse in the back.
This immediately started a race between Zack and Kay, our daughter, to see who would get the purse for mommy FIRST! Neither could reach the purse -all the way back- so they grabbed their clearly marked -bright orange tips. Hasbro, lever action, POP GUNS to try and hook the straps of Sharons purse. As I turned to hand the registration to Sharon I heard the slide of an Auto going into battery and a male voice screaming over and over "PUT THE GUN DOWN". At this point everything slowed waaaaaay down, and the situation became crystal clear. Sharon , a split second behind, turned got wide eyed, started to reach for Kay -closest to the cop- and scream at the same time in full protective MOM mode. To keep her from adding to the chaos I grabbed Sharon by the face, with one hand, and pushed her head into the headrest. With the other hand I pointed to the cop and yelled, In my best, loud and clear, squad leader voice, Twice,
"Safe your weapon, clear and safe your weapon!" Hoping the cop would respond to a range safety command. No LUCK! That guy was tunnelvisoned on my son and daughter ages 7 and 5, sharing 70/75 pounds between them. I understood what was happening...
1. The cop had no situational awareness, AT ALL!
2. The cop was locked into that sorry-assed, boy's in blue -us against the world- threat response mode.
3. I could not get between the gun and the kids in time.
4. If he pulled the trigger while the gun was pointed in the car, he or I was going to die shortly after.
Meanwhile...slo-mo......
The kids are still giggling and fighting for Sharon's purse, pop guns now entangled in the straps, cop still screaming...
I let go of Sharon who now has a read on the situation she nails Zack with her MOM is mad voice, Zack stops competeing for the purse, see's the cop/gun and sits down bug eyed.
Kay still giggling, trys to get the popgun barrels out of the purse straps now hears, and worse,
see's the screaming cop with the gun inches from her tiny face and goes into the little girl squeak/screech crying mode.
At this point, I believed the cop inhaled some air and woke up, turned WHITE -realization, I suppose-,
and after the 3rd attempt holstered his still, locked and cocked weapon. After a couple of LOooong moments he said in a shaky voice, "get the hell out of here". WE did, with two crying kids, and a set of parents who knew they had been helpless to save thier children.
Sharon started ripping the cop a new ******* after the fact, I told her in some very unkind words- 1st time in 17 years of marraige- that she had caused the whole damned thing!
I played with the kids for awhile when we arrived at the end of our 8 mile trip, got quietly, drunk and concluded I would never TRUST a cop again.
As to the provo situation ...
Same here, teens are part of the income stream for the City, and pay for City/County Court overhead.

Ron_H

Another true story, a few years back and in another part of Kalifornia:

On the sidewalk of beautiful downtown Watsonville, CA., at midnight, after exiting a restaurant at the conclusion of a business meeting dressed in a suit and tie (those who know Watsonville know how unusual that is at that time of night). I was with some others dressed similarly, one of whom had a toy cap pistol. I asked to see it and held it above my head ON A TRUCK ROUTE through the center of town. I fired it once and a slight CRACK sound came out of it just as a Smokey Bear drove by. Of course he slammed on his brakes, and came running up to us with his revolver drawn and stuck it into my stomach and screamed: " Give me the gun". I said: "What gun? I have no gun". I had returned the cap pistol to my friend, who calmly said half jokingly as he dropped the pistol on the hood of my car: "You mean this toy?"

At this point the Smokey turned somewhat red. But maintaining his committment to anger and aggresion lest we consider him a wimp, he threw me against the car and handcuffed me, saying he was arresting me for .......disturbing the peace. I concluded later that he had a difficult time recognizing when it was best to abandon fear and admit a perceived threat had passed......and blamed me for that difficulty in his character. Luckily he hadn't let his fear get the better of the control of his trigger finger.

Getting to the bottom line, I bailed out that night and pled not guilty to the charge of disturbing the peace on a truck route that night, and asked for a jury trial. Made the front page of the Watsonville Pajaroanian after an acquittal by the jury, despite the judge's best efforts to favor the officer's groundless assertions. The highlight of that trial was the action of my attorney when he, (during a segment of the trial in which we all went out to the parking lot to witness the officer firing the alleged "weapon") asked the officer to shoot it again because he had difficulty hearing the pop. The jury cracked up, and the judge was red faced.

Yes, I was then as I am now. I do not like being accused of criminal activity, particularly by overzealous individuals carrying real loaded firearms. Makes me nervous.