need a lawyer in a case against a mechanic
10-16-2002, 05:50 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
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need a lawyer in a case against a mechanic
Looking for an attorney in Maryland to represent me in filing a suit against a mechanic in Annapolis, MD. Some may have already have heard of the blunders my 86.5 was subjected to, by that shop. If you're an attorney on the list, or can recommend someone, please contact me...
Thanks to everyone at Frenzy, and especially to Eric and Tom who first pointed out the problem(s) and put a new timing belt on my car so I can make it back to NY
Tarek
86.5 A/T
Thanks to everyone at Frenzy, and especially to Eric and Tom who first pointed out the problem(s) and put a new timing belt on my car so I can make it back to NY
Tarek
86.5 A/T
10-16-2002, 06:13 PM
#2
Nordschleife Master
First action I would take is gather all your documentation/information.
Second action would be to contact the BBB and file a complaint.
If the BBB cannot correct the situation, then pursue Legal action.
Also, never pay cash for work done or any kind of monies in general. CC are the best way when dealing with a shop.(If you have the means) That way you can contact your CC company and dispute the charges if things go south. If you pay with cash, whatever form it may be, your SOL.
I learned this lesson years ago. Hope your situation works out for the better.
Second action would be to contact the BBB and file a complaint.
If the BBB cannot correct the situation, then pursue Legal action.
Also, never pay cash for work done or any kind of monies in general. CC are the best way when dealing with a shop.(If you have the means) That way you can contact your CC company and dispute the charges if things go south. If you pay with cash, whatever form it may be, your SOL.
I learned this lesson years ago. Hope your situation works out for the better.
10-16-2002, 07:02 PM
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go to martindale-hubbell lawyer directory (at any county law library, just ask for it) and find a consumer lawyer in your area.
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10-16-2002, 07:16 PM
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Primary thing you need in a case against a mechanic is documentation, as in: Second opinions. You need a few other shops to look at your car, and write letters of documentation that the work was done incorrectly. The courts will not care about your opinion, or even repair bills from another shop. The courts want *letters* or testimony from other shops, saying that work was done *incorrectly*. That is what will help win your case. Good luck.
10-16-2002, 07:17 PM
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After seeing the work that they(the shop) did on Tareks car. I hope someone steps to the plate to help him. Shops that do that kind of work should be PUNISHED and held responsible!
To summerize if i may...
His timing belt was installed in a BAAAD BAAAD way. The belt as it passed by the idler actually touched itself.! Picture the teeth nearly interlocking as it runs. The idler is suppose to fit BETWEEN the belt! (see pic) With one part of the belt on the top the other passing underneath.
On top of that, they had grounded out the t-belt tension light so it would NEVER come on!!
Glad the guys at the frenzy there could help you! Thats what its all about!
this is what it is SUPPOSE to look like. The belt on top of the pulley in this picture was under the pulley on TAREKS car Tooth to tooth with the other belt!!
<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />
To summerize if i may...
His timing belt was installed in a BAAAD BAAAD way. The belt as it passed by the idler actually touched itself.! Picture the teeth nearly interlocking as it runs. The idler is suppose to fit BETWEEN the belt! (see pic) With one part of the belt on the top the other passing underneath.
On top of that, they had grounded out the t-belt tension light so it would NEVER come on!!
Glad the guys at the frenzy there could help you! Thats what its all about!
this is what it is SUPPOSE to look like. The belt on top of the pulley in this picture was under the pulley on TAREKS car Tooth to tooth with the other belt!!
<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />
10-16-2002, 07:48 PM
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WOW! Is pretty much all that comes to mind after viewing those pictures. This kind of service situation gets me so pissed off…sorry guys…I guess it’s because I view it as a form of stealing from someone IE: service shop being paid for a service not being performed. To me based on those pictures, the shop was not qualified to perform that service obviously and by purposely grounding the tension sensor wire could be viewed as “fraud”; a deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.
I’m sorry to see this happen and you do have recourse as I’m speaking from experience. Not sure what your timeline has been concerning this situation.
First, gather all documentation.
Second, hopefully you paid by Charge Card, contest the charges under the headline “Services not rendered” and get the charge reversed.
Third, contact the BBB, which you should be able to do online and file a complaint. This got me the best mileage for my buck. It’s not that hard or time consuming.
Fourth, as bcdavis stated already, letters of documentation stating the work performed was incorrect and intentional intent to conceal such work on the shops part (grounding of tensioner sensor wire)
Fifth, which was you original question, start the process of retaining an attorney on a counsel basis (advice) or at the very least, attorney drawing up a legal document stating your legal intent in your resolving the situation.
I know some of this has already been suggested but this was the direction I chose is handling my “service shop” situation.
AND FINALLY! By all means, post the name of the shop so others don’t get screwed.
Good luck,
Tim Delarm
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I’m sorry to see this happen and you do have recourse as I’m speaking from experience. Not sure what your timeline has been concerning this situation.
First, gather all documentation.
Second, hopefully you paid by Charge Card, contest the charges under the headline “Services not rendered” and get the charge reversed.
Third, contact the BBB, which you should be able to do online and file a complaint. This got me the best mileage for my buck. It’s not that hard or time consuming.
Fourth, as bcdavis stated already, letters of documentation stating the work performed was incorrect and intentional intent to conceal such work on the shops part (grounding of tensioner sensor wire)
Fifth, which was you original question, start the process of retaining an attorney on a counsel basis (advice) or at the very least, attorney drawing up a legal document stating your legal intent in your resolving the situation.
I know some of this has already been suggested but this was the direction I chose is handling my “service shop” situation.
AND FINALLY! By all means, post the name of the shop so others don’t get screwed.
Good luck,
Tim Delarm
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
10-16-2002, 10:36 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
Tarek,
How long have you owned the car? Could the PO have grounded the sensor wire prior to selling it?
Possibly the Annapolis shop just left the wire where he found it. No excuse for the improper routing of the belt and the other stuff, but it would be nice to be able to prove he was the one to disarm the engine-life-threatning warning system if you can.
If a recent purchase, does the PO have either- documentation of service history or a mechanic who knows the recent service history on the car?
Maybe the PO's mechanic (if there is one) would be a good place for a second opinion if he can be trusted.
Greg
How long have you owned the car? Could the PO have grounded the sensor wire prior to selling it?
Possibly the Annapolis shop just left the wire where he found it. No excuse for the improper routing of the belt and the other stuff, but it would be nice to be able to prove he was the one to disarm the engine-life-threatning warning system if you can.
If a recent purchase, does the PO have either- documentation of service history or a mechanic who knows the recent service history on the car?
Maybe the PO's mechanic (if there is one) would be a good place for a second opinion if he can be trusted.
Greg
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10-16-2002, 11:23 PM
#8
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In socialist California, your first recourse is to allow the mechanic or shop to correct the problem. Then you get to negotiate with them whether they get to do the rework themselves, or have an agreed-upon third-party mechanic do it. Usually a dealer mechanic is a good choice for a third party. The mechanic doing the fixing documents the work and problems found if there is consequential damage.
In the end, you will only need an attorney if the shop fails to refund to you the cost of the repair or damage. Tough since a group of enthusiasts did the fix for free. If you can recover your moneys by disputing the credit card bill and sharing pictures and other evidence with the CC company and the mechanic, you are about as far as you can get. Do you need an attorney for that? Not if the mechanic and CC company come to an agreement on the disputed charges.
Follow the basic warranty procedures outlined on the work order. If that's not working to get your money back through the CC company, you next option is typically small claims court, where you get to try to recover your actual cost of repairs required. That's after you exhaust all your states administrative procedures.
So far nothing stated here says you need an attorney, or that there will be a damage award when in fact there is no consequential damage beyond the poor workmanship.
I've had the 'honor' of sitting as an expert witness on more than a few cases like this, and recommend that you work with the shop to get your money back. If that doesn't work, you can open a case with your state's office of consumer affairs, or whatever agency there regulates repair shops. Again, with no consequential damage, you best hope is to recover your actual repair costs.
My two sense.
In the end, you will only need an attorney if the shop fails to refund to you the cost of the repair or damage. Tough since a group of enthusiasts did the fix for free. If you can recover your moneys by disputing the credit card bill and sharing pictures and other evidence with the CC company and the mechanic, you are about as far as you can get. Do you need an attorney for that? Not if the mechanic and CC company come to an agreement on the disputed charges.
Follow the basic warranty procedures outlined on the work order. If that's not working to get your money back through the CC company, you next option is typically small claims court, where you get to try to recover your actual cost of repairs required. That's after you exhaust all your states administrative procedures.
So far nothing stated here says you need an attorney, or that there will be a damage award when in fact there is no consequential damage beyond the poor workmanship.
I've had the 'honor' of sitting as an expert witness on more than a few cases like this, and recommend that you work with the shop to get your money back. If that doesn't work, you can open a case with your state's office of consumer affairs, or whatever agency there regulates repair shops. Again, with no consequential damage, you best hope is to recover your actual repair costs.
My two sense.
10-17-2002, 12:22 AM
#9
Three Wheelin'
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I want to thank all those who have been providing me with valuable support, advice, and feedback on the course of action I should take in this matter....and thanks so much for the pics!!
I will answer some of the additional questions that were posed here:
1) I have owned the car for 7 years, and put on it about 140,000 miles since I bought it. Have done the t-belt and water pump at least 8 or 9 times so far.
2) The shop in question was particularly uncooperative, and extremely difficult to communicate with...but it was too late when I found that out, and was stuck 400 miles away from home on the way back from SITM.
3) The shop took more than 9 weeks to finish the job, and claimed to have worked on it each and every single day.
4) He also expected me to start paying storage fees (and without notice)the day he finished it, while I was all the way up in NY.
5) He had complete disregard to the fact that I was stranded away from home and did not bother with any special arrangement to help me deal with the situation.
6) He was particularly arrogant, difficult, and overbearing in dealing with 928 SP because I asked him to use them for any technical questions. It took much arm twisting to convince him it would be wise to replace the water pump during a timing belt job.
7) And by some unexplained predictive power, I had the urge to ask him over and over again and SPECIFICALLY requested he makes sure the t-belt sensor wire be attached correctly, and per the instructions of Dave Roberts...
8) He marked up all the parts by at least 100%, and sometimes 200% and 300%
9) He installed the wrong battery (against my will) and charged me $300 for it, only to cause an arc and a small fire in the back because the battery was too tall and was touching (positive lead rubbing metal ground) the metal lid. I did not need a battery in the first place. He concluded it based on the fact that it was draining every 3 weeks and again, installed the battery against my will.
10) I ended up having to rent and buy another car for transportation, and incur unecessary hotel and transportation costs due to his unexplained delays in finishing the work
11) The shop owner refused to talk to me directly (and continued to ignore my messages)when I had issues with the overinflated invoice. I was on the phone from NY to MD, so I couldn't be physically there to force him to talk to me directly. He held my car for ransom and had to have a friend go pick it up for me
12) There is more...but you get the idea on the background of all this...I'm still giving him the chance to rectify the situation...he's already arguing back that I didn't need to check the tension on the belt anyway....EVER..so he ; lost THAT chance... I'm still patient and will continue to put together a very credible package of documentation for his reference..and if THAT still diosn't work...will push further
13) I'm sorry I will not divulge the name of the shop just yet on here, but will do when I find it appropriate, and after he's had plenty of opportunity to redeem himself
thanks again for your support...keep the comments coming
Tarek
I will answer some of the additional questions that were posed here:
1) I have owned the car for 7 years, and put on it about 140,000 miles since I bought it. Have done the t-belt and water pump at least 8 or 9 times so far.
2) The shop in question was particularly uncooperative, and extremely difficult to communicate with...but it was too late when I found that out, and was stuck 400 miles away from home on the way back from SITM.
3) The shop took more than 9 weeks to finish the job, and claimed to have worked on it each and every single day.
4) He also expected me to start paying storage fees (and without notice)the day he finished it, while I was all the way up in NY.
5) He had complete disregard to the fact that I was stranded away from home and did not bother with any special arrangement to help me deal with the situation.
6) He was particularly arrogant, difficult, and overbearing in dealing with 928 SP because I asked him to use them for any technical questions. It took much arm twisting to convince him it would be wise to replace the water pump during a timing belt job.
7) And by some unexplained predictive power, I had the urge to ask him over and over again and SPECIFICALLY requested he makes sure the t-belt sensor wire be attached correctly, and per the instructions of Dave Roberts...
8) He marked up all the parts by at least 100%, and sometimes 200% and 300%
9) He installed the wrong battery (against my will) and charged me $300 for it, only to cause an arc and a small fire in the back because the battery was too tall and was touching (positive lead rubbing metal ground) the metal lid. I did not need a battery in the first place. He concluded it based on the fact that it was draining every 3 weeks and again, installed the battery against my will.
10) I ended up having to rent and buy another car for transportation, and incur unecessary hotel and transportation costs due to his unexplained delays in finishing the work
11) The shop owner refused to talk to me directly (and continued to ignore my messages)when I had issues with the overinflated invoice. I was on the phone from NY to MD, so I couldn't be physically there to force him to talk to me directly. He held my car for ransom and had to have a friend go pick it up for me
12) There is more...but you get the idea on the background of all this...I'm still giving him the chance to rectify the situation...he's already arguing back that I didn't need to check the tension on the belt anyway....EVER..so he ; lost THAT chance... I'm still patient and will continue to put together a very credible package of documentation for his reference..and if THAT still diosn't work...will push further
13) I'm sorry I will not divulge the name of the shop just yet on here, but will do when I find it appropriate, and after he's had plenty of opportunity to redeem himself
thanks again for your support...keep the comments coming
Tarek
10-17-2002, 12:59 AM
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as a mechanic. i feel for you in this situation. i dont understand tech,s that dont stand behind their work. (at any price). if you offer your time as a deal does it mean the deal gets the time your paying for or does it mean you get full boat at a lessor rate.
as a shop owner. if you take in a car for repairs are you not legally bound to stand behind your work. not really
that little line on the bottom of the r.o. you signed with all the really fine print above it is about as binding to the shop as a doctors surgical contract. i can kill your car on the operating table and call it a complication and you are still liable for the expense and or except it,s death with no recourse. (a slight exageration maybe but not far from the truth) the truth is , the integrity of any relationship with any type of (professional) is only as good as the person behind it. even your lawn boy is only as good as he knows how to be.
i have done work for several listers here and any of them can tell you. i may not know the answer today but i will find it. i use a common sense approach to any and all problems. i do my best to educate my customer to their car and its problems. i have always stood behind any work i have done and will do what it takes to make a wrong right, even if i feel its not from the work i did that day but there is complaint i would rather go a bit out of my way and keep a happy client rather than argue the small stuff or finer points. there is always the argument that you get you pay for. as a consumer you get a price from one shop at 500.00 and another 300.00 for the same job, should you expect the same quality from either price. yes but will you get it or does the 300.00 turn into the 500.00 before the car is finished. with the type of cars you guys are driving if you are not out there trying to find a shop and /or tech you can know on a first name basis you are taking the life of your car in your own hands. you really should go out of your to way to try find a shop or a tech you can really trust. even if they dont know 928,s all that well. you can provide them with plenty of info from this list to help them do it right. you are looking for attitude and integrity more than expertise. you can buy knowledge but you cant buy give a ****. if you get lucky you will get both but its rare, very rare. good luck. i have been to court for clients but never on the defense, both time it came down to if you were not there taking picturs of them while they ruined your car it was your word against theirs. only documentation can help you sway the judge. and plenty of it. most judges dont work on their cars let alone want to.you have to present a case to them that they can understand. you show them these pics and unless you are very lucky and they have some mechanical backround they may as well be looking at the damaged flower bed pics from their last case. you can get all the opinions you want but the only one he would call valid is the dealerships. he wouldnt recognize the integrity of my opinion over one from the napa parts dude. i for one hope that some some day they find a way to qualify shops and tech,s in such a way as to be able to weed out the idiots. but until then, good luck to you all
with highest regards for the knoledge contained within these pages and minds, joel
as a shop owner. if you take in a car for repairs are you not legally bound to stand behind your work. not really
that little line on the bottom of the r.o. you signed with all the really fine print above it is about as binding to the shop as a doctors surgical contract. i can kill your car on the operating table and call it a complication and you are still liable for the expense and or except it,s death with no recourse. (a slight exageration maybe but not far from the truth) the truth is , the integrity of any relationship with any type of (professional) is only as good as the person behind it. even your lawn boy is only as good as he knows how to be.
i have done work for several listers here and any of them can tell you. i may not know the answer today but i will find it. i use a common sense approach to any and all problems. i do my best to educate my customer to their car and its problems. i have always stood behind any work i have done and will do what it takes to make a wrong right, even if i feel its not from the work i did that day but there is complaint i would rather go a bit out of my way and keep a happy client rather than argue the small stuff or finer points. there is always the argument that you get you pay for. as a consumer you get a price from one shop at 500.00 and another 300.00 for the same job, should you expect the same quality from either price. yes but will you get it or does the 300.00 turn into the 500.00 before the car is finished. with the type of cars you guys are driving if you are not out there trying to find a shop and /or tech you can know on a first name basis you are taking the life of your car in your own hands. you really should go out of your to way to try find a shop or a tech you can really trust. even if they dont know 928,s all that well. you can provide them with plenty of info from this list to help them do it right. you are looking for attitude and integrity more than expertise. you can buy knowledge but you cant buy give a ****. if you get lucky you will get both but its rare, very rare. good luck. i have been to court for clients but never on the defense, both time it came down to if you were not there taking picturs of them while they ruined your car it was your word against theirs. only documentation can help you sway the judge. and plenty of it. most judges dont work on their cars let alone want to.you have to present a case to them that they can understand. you show them these pics and unless you are very lucky and they have some mechanical backround they may as well be looking at the damaged flower bed pics from their last case. you can get all the opinions you want but the only one he would call valid is the dealerships. he wouldnt recognize the integrity of my opinion over one from the napa parts dude. i for one hope that some some day they find a way to qualify shops and tech,s in such a way as to be able to weed out the idiots. but until then, good luck to you all
with highest regards for the knoledge contained within these pages and minds, joel
10-17-2002, 08:53 AM
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The liability that the owner and mechanic assume is not from damages incurred in the repairs. They become liable for the negligence of assembling the car incorrectly.
My only question to this would be, who did the timing belt work the last few times that you had it taken care of? If it was a different shop why did you change? If it was the same shop that had been working on your car, and you had a good relationship with this shop, what changed causing them to perform in such a manner?
When I purchased my Shark all of the members of my PCA group told me that you had to find a mechanic that could work on 928s specifically. The Shark being completely different from the 911 world and in small numbers is not a common repair for the average Porsche mechanic.
My only question to this would be, who did the timing belt work the last few times that you had it taken care of? If it was a different shop why did you change? If it was the same shop that had been working on your car, and you had a good relationship with this shop, what changed causing them to perform in such a manner?
When I purchased my Shark all of the members of my PCA group told me that you had to find a mechanic that could work on 928s specifically. The Shark being completely different from the 911 world and in small numbers is not a common repair for the average Porsche mechanic.
10-17-2002, 10:36 AM
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[quote] In the end, you will only need an attorney if the shop fails to refund to you the cost of the repair or damage. Tough since a group of enthusiasts did the fix for free. <hr></blockquote>
Free my a$$, Tarek just hasn't received the bill from "Tom & Eric's 928 Service Center" in Fredrickburg, VA. Hmmmm $2000 should cover it.....Ok we didn't have to change the water pump so let's make it $1000......but did have to replace the tensioner roller which was supposedly replaced by the MD shop..Not! add $200. That should cover it $1200.
Free my a$$, Tarek just hasn't received the bill from "Tom & Eric's 928 Service Center" in Fredrickburg, VA. Hmmmm $2000 should cover it.....Ok we didn't have to change the water pump so let's make it $1000......but did have to replace the tensioner roller which was supposedly replaced by the MD shop..Not! add $200. That should cover it $1200.
10-17-2002, 12:43 PM
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Jim,
You have to talk to Tom about the TaKillYa discount, I think his carbon fiber rear wing wouldn't now look like a dirt track wing if he had a transfusion Saturday morning, I'm a Miller Lite bottle guy...cheap & easy. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />
On another note, after seeing your run's I'm fighting with the idea of doing another before and after dyno run with the Autothority chip, I wonder if the increase is percentage or somewhat set, you started with some pretty high baseline #'s for an S4. Tarek was also very impressed with the very large increase on the red 85', maybe if we both get them soon we'll still get the Frenzy discount.
You have to talk to Tom about the TaKillYa discount, I think his carbon fiber rear wing wouldn't now look like a dirt track wing if he had a transfusion Saturday morning, I'm a Miller Lite bottle guy...cheap & easy. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />
On another note, after seeing your run's I'm fighting with the idea of doing another before and after dyno run with the Autothority chip, I wonder if the increase is percentage or somewhat set, you started with some pretty high baseline #'s for an S4. Tarek was also very impressed with the very large increase on the red 85', maybe if we both get them soon we'll still get the Frenzy discount.