fomanchu

I've gotta have the longest no start in the history of this forum..

I 've tried Sharkskins advice :
"When you get back, if it doesn't fire with the distributor realigned and the fuel pump relay installed, (FO: It cranks runs for 2 seconds then dies) drop about a teaspoon of gas in the #1 plug hole and try again, just to see if it fires at all." (FO: Still cranks runs 2 seconds then dies). FYI.. Im getting good blue spark from plug test.

My symptoms are start..rumble die.. as soon as I release the key. It's definitely running off of cold start valve only.

Fuel pressure is fine according to FP gauge in rail. I added a new coil and temp II sensor yesterday also.

I've only tried to crank it five times - Twice for each check above, once w/o fp relay to burn off fuel in and once w/AFM jammed opened. (Which yielded the same results).

Thinking back..the ignition switch is "new". How could I test to see that is the problem. Also, should I track down vacuum leaks, I do have new vac hoses from 928 motorsport. Or should I try to re-adjust timing???

Also, thanks to all who replied to this thread! I really appreciate the help and encouragement. Sometimes I think about sending it to the junk yard .. but I know Im close and will get it running soon!

Ben Allison

I have a feeling that one of the two relays are wired poorly. The relays themselves may be OK, but either aren't receiving power or aren't being activated properly.

Make sure you have 12V on pin 30 of both the fuel pump relay and the Jetronic relay. (Red multimeter lead inside pin 30, black on good ground)

If you don't have 12V at pin 30 on fuel pump relay:
* Check continuity between the upper and lower part of fuse 22
* Check continuity between bottom pin of fuse 22 and pin 30 on fuel pump relay
* Check continuity between top pin of fuse 22 and pin 30 on fuel pump relay

If you have 12V at pin 30 on fuel pump relay
* Check for 12V at pin 15 of the fuel pump relay when the ignition is on (and 0V off)
* Check continuity between pin 31b of the fuel pump relay and Z4 (4th pin of the "Z" harness on the bottom row of the fuse panel). Unplug the "Z" harness and check the terminal on the panel itself (not on the wiring side).
* Check continuity between Z4 and W6 (again, the terminals on the panel, not the wiring)
* Check continuity between W6 (on the wiring harness side this time) and pin 1 of the 25pin L-Jetronic plug (big box to the right of the fuse panel)

If you don't have 12V at pin 30 of the L-Jetronic relay
* Check back of the fuse panel and make sure pin 30 is wired up to power correctly (please disconnect battery first)

If you have 12V at pin 30 of the L-Jetronic relay
* Check continuity between pin 85 of the L-Jetronic relay and ground.
* Check for 12V on pin 86 of the L-Jetronic relay when ignition is on (and 0V when off)
* Check for continuity between pin 87 of the L-Jetronic relay and W4 on the panel (see note below)
* Check for continuity between pin 87 of the L-Jetronic relay and W5 on the panel (see note below)
* note: there might be more than one 87 pin, not sure which one goes to which, check both and as long as one of them has continuity with W4 and W5, you're OK
* Check for continuity between W4 on the wiring side and Pin 29 on the L-Jetronic wiring harness
* Check for continuity between W5 on the wiring side and Pin 10 on the L-Jetronic wiring harness

Note that the fuse #'s and wiring harness pins are specific to the 1982 model. If you're following along at home and don't have a 1982, you'll need to check the WSM wiring diagram

fomanchu

Ben,

Thanks!! I will get my voltmeter, wsm and flashlight and will check today!

Mrmerlin

nice write up Ben

fomanchu

before I go on..where the heck in connector Z??? Is it really N in the middle of the panel?

j.kenzie@sbcglobal.net

No, it is Z. But it is out of alphabetical order and somewhere near the center below the row of connectors. The pins are numbered.

blown 87

This may be a long shot, but are you sure it is gasoline in the fuel rails?

I have seen that trip some folks up, like me, more than once.

fomanchu

Blown 87..
I have a fuel pressure gauge on the rail and it shows factory specs, so I didnt think fuel in the rail would be an issue.

My results:
If you don't have 12V at pin 30 on fuel pump relay: (NA) I have 12v
* Check continuity between the upper and lower part of fuse 22
* Check continuity between bottom pin of fuse 22 and pin 30 on fuel pump relay
* Check continuity between top pin of fuse 22 and pin 30 on fuel pump relay

If you have 12V at pin 30 on fuel pump relay Yes
* Check for 12V at pin 15 of the fuel pump relay when the ignition is on (and 0V off) Yes
* Check continuity between pin 31b of the fuel pump relay and Z4 (4th pin of the "Z" harness on the bottom row of the fuse panel). Unplug the "Z" harness and check the terminal on the panel itself (not on the wiring side). No harness on Z connector but I do have continuity at Z4
* Check continuity between Z4 and W6 (again, the terminals on the panel, not the wiring) Yes, continuity
* Check continuity between W6 (on the wiring harness side this time) and pin 1 of the 25pin L-Jetronic plug (big box to the right of the fuse panel) Yes continuity

If you don't have 12V at pin 30 of the L-Jetronic relay (NA) I got 12v
* Check back of the fuse panel and make sure pin 30 is wired up to power correctly (please disconnect battery first)

If you have 12V at pin 30 of the L-Jetronic relay
* Check continuity between pin 85 of the L-Jetronic relay and ground. Yes
* Check for 12V on pin 86 of the L-Jetronic relay when ignition is on (and 0V when off)Got 12v
* Check for continuity between pin 87 of the L-Jetronic relay and W4 on the panel (see note below)Got continuity
* Check for continuity between pin 87 of the L-Jetronic relay and W5 on the panel (see note below) Got continuity
* note: there might be more than one 87 pin, not sure which one goes to which, check both and as long as one of them has continuity with W4 and W5, you're OK
* Check for continuity between W4 on the wiring side and Pin 29 on the L-Jetronic wiring harness Got continuity
* Check for continuity between W5 on the wiring side and Pin 10 on the L-Jetronic wiring harness Got continuity

blown 87

What I am saying is "Are you sure it is gasoline in the rails?"
We see maybe one car every other month that has diesel in a gas car, gas in a diesel, or just water.
Make sure what you have is gasoline.

BTDT when every thing else checks out, look at what it is burning and make sure that the spark will jump at least 1/2 inch.

Most likely is not your problem, but it is easy to check.

dbrown928

I experienced similar symptoms on my 78 after sitting for a long period of time, turned out to be a bad fuel accumulator (pass rear wheel well)

fomanchu

Blown 87,
The station I get gas from doesnt sell diesel..plus I also used gas from the same can in my lawnmower.

Dbrown928,
I dont believe my 82 has a fuel accumulator..those are only on CIS.

Thanks guys..keep 'em coming!

But I think I'm on to something... while reviewing my earlier electrical/continuity testing from Ben, I stumbled upon the write up "L-Jetronic Connector Pin-out" by Rich9928p. In it he list the following tests similar to Bens writeup.

a. Measure voltage at pin 30? 12v present
-- If 12V present, next (for all test cases below, have the ignition turned on) is there 12V at pin 87? NO voltage! If yes go to (b)
-- If no, check the connection at the battery Connection at positive side is tight and clean. A direct cable connects the battery to the AFC relay pin 30. Is there 12V at AFC relay pin 85? No voltage!! If there is no voltage, the ignition switch could be bad or the path between the ignition switch and AFC relay has an open or short circuit. Ignition switch was replaced in early 2008, it was purchased from Devek in Feb 03. So it took me a while to replace it ...ok

Hmm..I just dug up my old ignition switch, the one that required me to manually set the switch in the right spot or the headlights wouldn't pop up, etc,etc. Well, I will be a contortionist tomorrow evening while I'm replacing the ignition switch. This is only to see if it will crank..if it does..a new switch will be ordered!!

Thanks!

tveltman

I assume that's a 4-cycle lawnmower and not a 2-cycle premixed gas and oil. I don't know if that might affect your rubber hoses with the oil in the lines, but it's another answer.

Edit: I'm inclined to agree with Ben. I had a problem with my car starting up and then failing to restart when it was turned off. Couldnt figure the damn thing out. It ended up being an intermittantly loose connection in the physical wiring BEHIND the fuse panel. I pulled the sucker out, cleaned up the wires, soldered her together properly, then reassembled and the problem went away. The important message here is that I did EXACTLY the same set of tests you did, and it passed, but still the problem persisted.

Landseer

thermo time switch is notorious for causing what you describe. On my 84 gave no-start condition, just stumbled occasionally, until replaced. Your 82 will have one of these. About $75 from 928 International. Located in front waterbridge area, near temp 2. I know it says it was replaced in 2003 by an entity. I'd do it again anyway. Some great work and some questionable work has been attributed to that shop.

Ignition switch change may help. I've heard rumors of new ones being defective, but can't recall the source. Easy to try, since you have a spare. But I'd definitely change time/temp.


You replaced green wire. From what source? A batch of green wires was reported bad by Jim Bailey in roughly 2004 2005 time frame. Had leads reversed on one end. Not sure if a bad one would still allow spark to occur at all, however.

Ben Allison

Pin 87 and 85 will only be energized if a relay is actually plugged in (loosened enough to allow contact but enough to put multimeter leads in), because 30 and 86 are the "hot" sides. If you removed the relay, there is no way you will have 12v at pins 85 or 87 on the electrical panel. You can test relay pin 87 by unplugging the L-Jet harness, turn ignition key and check for 12V at pins 10 and 29 on the L-Jet connector. Since you checked for continuity of these earlier, you should likely see 12V.

Landseer

I've read and re-read this post. This should not be so hard. Men, we must redouble efforts on this issue.

Timing
Can you please pull the two upper timing belt covers and lets double-check the timing, making sure a cam bolt hasn't loosened or a cam nose broken, or belt jumped teeth, thus taking the car out-of-time? Please set the crank to TDC. We need to see snapshots of the two cam gears from the front and also shot from the top to see their marks in the gears. We need to see three or four pictures of the distributor (without cap but with rotor). There should be an alignment mark on the body of the distributor, either where the cap contacts it or below towards the distributor base that should align with the rotor. Finally, we need a picture of the mark on the pulley. All this at TDC.

Relays (doesn't matter if they are new, they can still be bad)
Have you concurrently removed and jumpered both the fuel pump relay (30 to 87 ) and the ignition relay ( 30 to 87 to 87a, using a three-way jump wire), then tried to start the car?

Can you recheck the rotor and cap for corrosion, clean-up with some 1000 sandpaper and wipe out with cotton rag?

Were either your temp 2 or your thermo time switch installed with teflon tape sealant ?

Is this, then, a non-alarm car? You have no Z harness plug. Either its somehow tucked behind the panel, else, its a non-alarm car. Does the hatch lock have two wires exiting the bottom of the lock body? If not, it doesn't have the alarm cylinder and may be a non alarm car.

What is the condition of the 14 pin connector in the engine compartment, near the cross brace, passenger fender? Have you disassembled and cleaned it thoroughly and removed the backs of each half to expose the solder connections. Look for broken wires and shorting wires and corrosion.

Sorry for editing after posting, just had to restructure this post a bit.