Collector or Enthusiast - what are you?
03-28-2009, 06:03 PM
#1
Not the sharpest tool in the shed
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Collector or Enthusiast - what are you?
I have noticed there is a lot of chatter on Rennlist about what 928’s are worth, what they are selling for and the passion or frustration some seem to have about 928’s not being respected in the automotive collector car realm in terms of market monetary value when compared to less capable and more prevalent performance cars. There have been several threads about this over the past couple of months. It has got me to thinking, what sort of people are Rennlisters – collectors or enthusiasts?
As someone who recently just spent a considerable amount of time researching and then buying a 928 I can tell you there is no credible source for sales data relative to 928s. Even if you were to access all of the DMV registration data for all 50 states it would still be suspect as some private sellers/buyers reflect a much lower than actual selling price to avoid paying taxes/registration fees. So indeed there is a lot of hearsay.
There is something fundamentally different between most 928 buyers and Ferrari or other exotics buyers. Ferrari owners, in most cases, are collectors or individuals intent on owning the brand and the panache of that marque. To me, and evidenced by much of the posts here on Rennlist and other forums, 928 owners are enthusiasts, meaning, that we love our cars collectively for what they can do and how we interoperate with them. We tear into them, enhance them, ever fiddle with and are confounded by them. I can assure you the people who I have known that were Ferrari owners were never ever so passionate or knowledgeable about their cars and the year to year idiosyncrasies, as the population of 928 owners. I posture that most Porsche owners 914/924/944/968/928/911/933/997/.... are enthusiast owners - we own our cars because of their engineering, performance and then their style and how we interact with them.
There is another marque similar to the 928 in this regard; the Sunbeam Tiger. It is in all intents a strong cousin to the 1960’s AC Cobra of Carroll Shelby fame. Same drive train 260/289 Ford small block with Top Loader 4 speed with disc brakes, squeezed into a small British unibodied convertible (Alpine). It was a stiff running little car that outperformed many of the GT's of the day. In 1966 this single marque won the Pikes Peak for its class, was the U.S. quarter mile record holder for the stock production class, won several European ralleys, ran Le Mans and was in contention for the SCCA Class B championship until it was literally run off the road in last race of the season at Riverside in order to prevent it from being the season points winner (rumored Ford ordered the hit because it did not want its Shelby Mustang to lose out to the Tiger despite having the same drive trains). Even with this amazing pedigree this car is not widely known or respected by the collector community despite Shelby’s personal love of this car. He and especially his wife, participate in the every 4 years Tigers United events and reminds us that his Tiger is the only car he has kept since new (he has repurchased other cars he has previously owned). Regardless, his acknowledgment of the accomplishments of this powerful little car it still languishes in the shadows of more recognized and higher valued Shelby Mustangs.
I own a Tiger not because of what it is worth but because of what it can do, what it did do, and because it is unique, few in number and to some extent because it is a bit obscure. The owner community is a bunch of committed enthusiast drivers comprised of those who think is scariligous to alter them in any way to those who have created 500 hp beasts in a 2300 lb car. Sound familiar?
So what is it my point? As driver enthusiast 928 owners the market price of a car should only matter to you if you are buying or selling. Beyond that would it make any difference to you if your car was worth $20K more or less than it does at this moment? Would the smile you get when you slide behind the wheel for some spirited driving on your favorite road be any broader? Would the level of frustration of discovering some new rattle in the nether reaches under the dash be any less if the car was worth more? No, probably not. I also understand there are those of us who are looking to move up to a different car, S4 to GTS 5spd for example, even so isn’t it better for the average enthusiast to be able to do so without having to rob a bank? The cost of parts is high enough. I don’t think many of us bought these cars like we did real estate a few years ago. They are not investments, not really, when you add up all of the ancillary costs of 928 ownership I can’t imagine it has a positive net outcome. They are like boats – “Bust Out Another Thousand” is a well deserved phrase.
One reason I decided to get a 928 was due to the passionate user community. There is no better resource than of those in the user forums. There is nothing so coordinated in the Sunbeam Tiger universe. I have only been a participant of Rennlist for a couple of months now and so far what I can tell is this – the Rennlist community is rather like a very large family. There is always some measure of good, bad, helpful, disparaging, drama, consoling, chastising, great respect, going on. It is a really interesting dynamic that is positive despite whatever at the moment emotions or consequences are dealt here. But it is the committed passion of the 928 owner that binds and this user community is about a much greater good than the sometime negative. Every large family has the irritating uncle/aunt that is always a catalyst for disharmony. Communities like ours are dysfunctionally functional. I like that.
So folks I think the person who thinks they can get $70k for a 94 GTS 5spd may/may not be accurate. There is no credible reference for prices. I say throw it up on eBay/Cars.com/Autotrader and see what happens. To me, it is an enigma why that 36,000 mile 94 Midnight Blue/Classic Gray AT GTS in Santa Rosa languishes unsold for almost half the price of that $70k car? There is not that much difference in the mileage just the strange milestone that makes one car at 15,000 miles a collector car and another in fantastic original pampered condition at 36,000 miles a driver. The differences between what you can do in a 5spd versus a S4/GTS AT is really more about religion.
The 928, like the Sunbeam Tiger, may never get its due in terms of world recognition of its performance, rarity and engineering. I for one am happy about that. I would not be a 928 owner if the cars were at the same price levels as similar era Ferraris and other exotics.
Go out and drive your car today or twist a wrench on it and just think about the fact that you possess a truly incredible performance machine and are a member of a very select group of people who are fortunate to do so. A vehicle’s worth should be measured in your satisfaction of it, not in its monetary value. Collector versus enthusiast, what are you and who enjoys their cars more? That is the question.
I am an enthusiast.
As someone who recently just spent a considerable amount of time researching and then buying a 928 I can tell you there is no credible source for sales data relative to 928s. Even if you were to access all of the DMV registration data for all 50 states it would still be suspect as some private sellers/buyers reflect a much lower than actual selling price to avoid paying taxes/registration fees. So indeed there is a lot of hearsay.
There is something fundamentally different between most 928 buyers and Ferrari or other exotics buyers. Ferrari owners, in most cases, are collectors or individuals intent on owning the brand and the panache of that marque. To me, and evidenced by much of the posts here on Rennlist and other forums, 928 owners are enthusiasts, meaning, that we love our cars collectively for what they can do and how we interoperate with them. We tear into them, enhance them, ever fiddle with and are confounded by them. I can assure you the people who I have known that were Ferrari owners were never ever so passionate or knowledgeable about their cars and the year to year idiosyncrasies, as the population of 928 owners. I posture that most Porsche owners 914/924/944/968/928/911/933/997/.... are enthusiast owners - we own our cars because of their engineering, performance and then their style and how we interact with them.
There is another marque similar to the 928 in this regard; the Sunbeam Tiger. It is in all intents a strong cousin to the 1960’s AC Cobra of Carroll Shelby fame. Same drive train 260/289 Ford small block with Top Loader 4 speed with disc brakes, squeezed into a small British unibodied convertible (Alpine). It was a stiff running little car that outperformed many of the GT's of the day. In 1966 this single marque won the Pikes Peak for its class, was the U.S. quarter mile record holder for the stock production class, won several European ralleys, ran Le Mans and was in contention for the SCCA Class B championship until it was literally run off the road in last race of the season at Riverside in order to prevent it from being the season points winner (rumored Ford ordered the hit because it did not want its Shelby Mustang to lose out to the Tiger despite having the same drive trains). Even with this amazing pedigree this car is not widely known or respected by the collector community despite Shelby’s personal love of this car. He and especially his wife, participate in the every 4 years Tigers United events and reminds us that his Tiger is the only car he has kept since new (he has repurchased other cars he has previously owned). Regardless, his acknowledgment of the accomplishments of this powerful little car it still languishes in the shadows of more recognized and higher valued Shelby Mustangs.
I own a Tiger not because of what it is worth but because of what it can do, what it did do, and because it is unique, few in number and to some extent because it is a bit obscure. The owner community is a bunch of committed enthusiast drivers comprised of those who think is scariligous to alter them in any way to those who have created 500 hp beasts in a 2300 lb car. Sound familiar?
So what is it my point? As driver enthusiast 928 owners the market price of a car should only matter to you if you are buying or selling. Beyond that would it make any difference to you if your car was worth $20K more or less than it does at this moment? Would the smile you get when you slide behind the wheel for some spirited driving on your favorite road be any broader? Would the level of frustration of discovering some new rattle in the nether reaches under the dash be any less if the car was worth more? No, probably not. I also understand there are those of us who are looking to move up to a different car, S4 to GTS 5spd for example, even so isn’t it better for the average enthusiast to be able to do so without having to rob a bank? The cost of parts is high enough. I don’t think many of us bought these cars like we did real estate a few years ago. They are not investments, not really, when you add up all of the ancillary costs of 928 ownership I can’t imagine it has a positive net outcome. They are like boats – “Bust Out Another Thousand” is a well deserved phrase.
One reason I decided to get a 928 was due to the passionate user community. There is no better resource than of those in the user forums. There is nothing so coordinated in the Sunbeam Tiger universe. I have only been a participant of Rennlist for a couple of months now and so far what I can tell is this – the Rennlist community is rather like a very large family. There is always some measure of good, bad, helpful, disparaging, drama, consoling, chastising, great respect, going on. It is a really interesting dynamic that is positive despite whatever at the moment emotions or consequences are dealt here. But it is the committed passion of the 928 owner that binds and this user community is about a much greater good than the sometime negative. Every large family has the irritating uncle/aunt that is always a catalyst for disharmony. Communities like ours are dysfunctionally functional. I like that.
So folks I think the person who thinks they can get $70k for a 94 GTS 5spd may/may not be accurate. There is no credible reference for prices. I say throw it up on eBay/Cars.com/Autotrader and see what happens. To me, it is an enigma why that 36,000 mile 94 Midnight Blue/Classic Gray AT GTS in Santa Rosa languishes unsold for almost half the price of that $70k car? There is not that much difference in the mileage just the strange milestone that makes one car at 15,000 miles a collector car and another in fantastic original pampered condition at 36,000 miles a driver. The differences between what you can do in a 5spd versus a S4/GTS AT is really more about religion.
The 928, like the Sunbeam Tiger, may never get its due in terms of world recognition of its performance, rarity and engineering. I for one am happy about that. I would not be a 928 owner if the cars were at the same price levels as similar era Ferraris and other exotics.
Go out and drive your car today or twist a wrench on it and just think about the fact that you possess a truly incredible performance machine and are a member of a very select group of people who are fortunate to do so. A vehicle’s worth should be measured in your satisfaction of it, not in its monetary value. Collector versus enthusiast, what are you and who enjoys their cars more? That is the question.
I am an enthusiast.
03-28-2009, 06:29 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
I'm an enthusiast. I love my 928GT and 911GT3. Drive both as frequently as I can and really don't give a rip about what they are "worth".
A good friend has a Tiger with a stroked 5-liter SVO engine; with the SS headers it sounds great and runs very strong. It's only good for one hard stop before the brakes are gone. I love the Tiger!
A good friend has a Tiger with a stroked 5-liter SVO engine; with the SS headers it sounds great and runs very strong. It's only good for one hard stop before the brakes are gone. I love the Tiger!
03-28-2009, 06:51 PM
#3
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03-28-2009, 06:57 PM
#4
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I'm either an enthusiast or a victim. It's a point-of-view thing. 'Collector' doesn't generally apply to us commoners who own just one, drive it regularly, etc.
I do know collectors who make it a point to drive everything they own whenever they can, and share their love with other collectors but more importantly with the other enthusiasts. Bruce Meyers leaps to the foreground, along with Jay Leno and a few others around here. I'm not quite in their league yet myself. So I just drive mine.
I do know collectors who make it a point to drive everything they own whenever they can, and share their love with other collectors but more importantly with the other enthusiasts. Bruce Meyers leaps to the foreground, along with Jay Leno and a few others around here. I'm not quite in their league yet myself. So I just drive mine.
03-28-2009, 07:10 PM
#6
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S2ordie-
Great post! I'm an enthusiast and bought my 928 because of the community support here. Were I to buy another I'd still be an enthusiast....
Great post! I'm an enthusiast and bought my 928 because of the community support here. Were I to buy another I'd still be an enthusiast....
03-28-2009, 07:11 PM
#7
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A collector has to start somewhere.
I think I just passed the point where I could have possibly recovered the cost of the initial purchase plus parts I've bought for this car. I have put in countless hours and will never get that cost back (which is fine because that was never my intention) but this car is now officially a financial loss for me.
Not bad considering I've had it over 2 years now. I keep the receipts but NEVER add them up. I'm definitely on the side of enthusiast.
I think I just passed the point where I could have possibly recovered the cost of the initial purchase plus parts I've bought for this car. I have put in countless hours and will never get that cost back (which is fine because that was never my intention) but this car is now officially a financial loss for me.
Not bad considering I've had it over 2 years now. I keep the receipts but NEVER add them up. I'm definitely on the side of enthusiast.
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03-28-2009, 07:19 PM
#8
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I'm an "enhusiast" that is always "collecting" parts....because you never know when you will need em'.... I think most of us are just curious about market prices. It blows me away that such an awesome piece of engineering such as the 928 could be worth so little on the market. The Excellence 928 market value issue just passed, and again prices have dropped. If I had the spare cash, I do believe I would collect as many 928's as I could... Now thats hard core enthusiast enthusiasm.... I do believe that some day these gems will be worth their real value...Especially ones we have so carefully maintained.
03-28-2009, 07:27 PM
#9
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Great read and I would say I agree and disagree as you probably already suspected.
There is nothing wrong with being an enthusiast and wanting to keep the cars value higher. I don't understand why anyone would be negative about the cars holding or gaining in value especially considering the amount of money/time we all spend to keep these cars on the road. Seriously, why not keep demand high and keep values up, is there is a problem with this?
Granted none of us here have bought our cars as an investment. We all appreciate the cars for different reasons. Some love the way they handle the track, others love the long distance capabilites. I personally love how intuitive it is to drive and how it looks. I also love the build quality and the fact that Porsche really put thought into every part.
As you said, its a tight knit community full of different kinds of people.
There is nothing wrong with being an enthusiast and wanting to keep the cars value higher. I don't understand why anyone would be negative about the cars holding or gaining in value especially considering the amount of money/time we all spend to keep these cars on the road. Seriously, why not keep demand high and keep values up, is there is a problem with this?
Granted none of us here have bought our cars as an investment. We all appreciate the cars for different reasons. Some love the way they handle the track, others love the long distance capabilites. I personally love how intuitive it is to drive and how it looks. I also love the build quality and the fact that Porsche really put thought into every part.
As you said, its a tight knit community full of different kinds of people.
03-28-2009, 07:33 PM
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03-28-2009, 07:37 PM
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enthusiast
I have owned my 1989 S4 since 1996, when I bought it with 23K miles on it. I now have 84K and drive it every chance I can, except winters here in New England. I had a 67 Austin Healey 3000 that I had stripped and restored in 1977 and had it until I bought the 928. Same there, even tough it was very nicely restored. I drove it, that's the fun. I also took very good care of it and it looked as it did in '77 when I sold it in 1996.
My 928 looks the same as when I bought it 13 years ago even tough I have put 60K on it. Again it's not the money, but the enjoyment of driving it that makes it great.
To see people pay 100's thousands $$ for cars at auctions like Barret Jackson, that they will probably not drive, but put away, seems like a waste as far as I am concerned.
Bob Voskian
1989 928 S4 auto silver/black
2006 BMW X5 3.0i
My 928 looks the same as when I bought it 13 years ago even tough I have put 60K on it. Again it's not the money, but the enjoyment of driving it that makes it great.
To see people pay 100's thousands $$ for cars at auctions like Barret Jackson, that they will probably not drive, but put away, seems like a waste as far as I am concerned.
Bob Voskian
1989 928 S4 auto silver/black
2006 BMW X5 3.0i
03-28-2009, 07:39 PM
#12
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All I can say is I am so glad I bought a car from S2ordie. The 928 community has a fine new member!
Dan its looking like this week I am headed down there with your car. I'll keep you posted.
Oh and put me on the enthusiast side~
Dan its looking like this week I am headed down there with your car. I'll keep you posted.
Oh and put me on the enthusiast side~
03-28-2009, 07:40 PM
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Defintely two camps on that, which is all good.
I feel the 928 crowd tends to lean either to folks attempting to restore/preserve cars in very close to perfect original condition, and nuts like me who take a perfectly healthy 88 S4 and bore it out to 6.5L along with updating the rest of the working parts so I can romp on it harder. Both crowds are worthy.
And then there's the racers. Another breed entirely
I feel the 928 crowd tends to lean either to folks attempting to restore/preserve cars in very close to perfect original condition, and nuts like me who take a perfectly healthy 88 S4 and bore it out to 6.5L along with updating the rest of the working parts so I can romp on it harder. Both crowds are worthy.
And then there's the racers. Another breed entirely
03-28-2009, 08:11 PM
#15
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Enthusiast. The money I spend is a write-off (from an investment perspective) to allow me driving pleasure. Perfect preservation, especially cosmetic, is not my objective.