paragoensia

Hello everybody,

After spending hours on this forum (I found it very useful) I now have a question to which I couldn't find the answer. Since this is my first post I'll introduce myself shortly.

I'm Tim, 25 years old and I live in a small town near Amsterdam/Holland. I imported a shark a couple of months ago. She's a '89 S4 automatic and a stunner, green metallic, only 112K kms and a service history. It was love at first sight. I also own a '79 924 ratlook, a real moneypit but I just can't bear the idea of selling her.

The problem I have is with my 928. A while back I broke down, called road assistance and we found out the fuelpump made a horrible noise. So they brought me home on a flatbed. When I went to disconnect everything I found out there was barely any fuel flowing from the tank to the main fuelpump. The secondary pump (in-tank) didn't work at all. When I tested with my 924 fuelpump it gave a similar noise. So I took out the in-tank fuelpump. After that fix I drove it for a couple of days without any problems. One morning I drove the car, parked it and after a few hours it wouldn't start anymore. The starter cranks but really slowly so the engine won't fire. So my first idea was a dead battery. I replaced the battery with another one which measured about 12.5 volts. No success, so I started checking some ground connections. everything seemed fine. I put on an extra ground cable....just in case. But again no luck. So I thought that maybe the starter was broken. Called a friend who works at the road assistance, he came and jumped the car with a heavy jumper box. The car ran for maybe 2 minutes, my friend left, I engaged reverse and the car stalled again. I took out the starter and took it to a Bosch service dealer. They tested it and told me it was ok (and charged me €50,-). So I put it back and tried again. Again no luck. So I pulled the starter relay. I didn't look for the problem there because the solenoid on the starter engaged, so I figured the relay worked. Just in case I swapped it with a similar one (horn). But again.....nothing. I measured the battery again, 12.21v. I measured the hot wire on the starter, 12.18v. I connected an extra wire on the small wire on the solenoid and measured about 8 volts when cranking. Not enough but the starter clearly engages. So the starter has a good electric feed and it turns the engine (slowly). I took the small wire off and jumped the starter directly on the battery and also took a jumper cable, connected it to the engine ground and to the bolts on the starter. No difference. I did notice that the battery has 12.21v but the volt meter in the car reads only a little above 10v. When I crank the engine it goes even lower so I guess that's why I only have 8v from the small starter wire. I called my grease-monkey (independent Porsche specialist) and he told me to check the neutral safety switch but didn't I bridge that by giving the starter solenoid signal manually? So I went back under the car (It's outside and I have raised it by jacking it up and putting her front wheels on concrete tiles) but I can't seem to find the neutral safety switch. It's been a long day so maybe try again tomorrow with a fresh view. I tried starting the car and wiggling the gear selector, no difference, I tried all positions, but as "normal" only (slow) cranking in Park and Neutral. Does anyone have any suggestion where to look next? I'm a bit low on ideas at the moment. Can it still be the neutral safety switch? Am I overlooking something? Another thing I found awkward, when I use the continuity function on my voltmeter (beeps when it finds a closed circuit) and I put it on the positive lead (without battery) and the other side on the negative it beeps. Is that normal? Or does that mean my positive hits ground somewhere? I'm not a mechanic nor a electrician just an enthusiast who is in need of some professional advice.....I hope you can help me.

Thanks in advance,
Tim

Ed MD

Before any further electrical work, crank the engine by hand to see if it turns easily. If its a very hard to turn over and you're not feeling the compressions then its not electrical, but mechanical...and that's another problem such as main bearing failure/freezing. Ed M

Landseer

Any flecks on the dipstick viewed with strong light?

Have you released flexplate pressure and measured crankshaft endplay yet?

cambria

Do a search for thrust bearing failure, and then check for crank saft end play.

Bertrand Daoust

Here is a good procedure for mesuring the crank shaft end play:
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...pictorial.html

Good luck.

Alan

Well - 928s crank slowly anyway compared to many other cars - so that may be normal...

What isn't normal is that it doesn't start and the quite lower voltage on the starter solenoid. I would disconnect the battery and totally clean up all the connections at the front jump post in the engine bay (near rad on pass fender - under plastic cover). I'd also clean up all the connections on the starter main terminal and on the alternator main terminal...

Alan

WallyP

To summerize some of the more common possibilities (some of which have been mentioned):
- Faulty Battery. Check the voltage while the starter is operating. Easiest check is to install a known good battery.
- Faulty Ground Cable. There is a cable from the right side of the chassis to the bottom of the engine.
- High Drag in the Engine. Thrust Bearing Failure, due to the drive shaft pushing on the flexplate.

paragoensia

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the replies! It took me a while but I got a little further. I guess it's not an electrical problem. I took all of the sparkplugs out and tried cranking the engine by hand. It won't move at all. It stopped cranking electrical also It now just clicks. I read the manual for measuring the endshaft play...wow....that's a bit much for an amateur. Removing the exaust etc is just too big of a job to do on the streets. So the next step is rent a trailer and bring it to the porsche specialist (no, I won't swear on this forum)

Thanks for all your help!
gr,
Tim

Bertrand Daoust

Tim,
And don't put back the 2 bolts at the back of the bell housing when you will have finish the inspection (the ones that are stuck over the exaust).
The next time you will want to check anything under there, you will not need to remove the exaust.
Alot easier that way. And the bell housing still have 4 bolts to hold it tight to the car.

Hope you won't have problems with the thrust bearing.
Good luck.

WallyP

Tim,

One possibility - not likely, but possible - is that the starter is hung in the ring gear. This will give the symtoms that you have, and could have been caused by an underlying problem with the battery or cables.

You can check by just loosening the starter.

Ben

As far as I understand, you shouldn't need to remove the exhaust if your car doesn't have cats, which may be the case with you living in Europe.

paragoensia

Hi guys,

After all the help I thought I'd keep you posted. I completely took off the starter but still the engine won't turn. While under there I had a look, I do have a cat.....(maybe because it's import) and 6 bolts in the bell housing. I've reached my boiling point with this car, I imported the car a couple of months ago, had it independently checked before it was shipped, got it through dutch customs and got my licence plates. For my plates I had to take it to the Porsche specialist for a AT-hose leak, a new (refurbished) steering rack and a lot of other steering parts, bought a new set of headlamps (anyone in need of a near mint set of LH-traffic headlights?) etc etc. Then the passenger side window motor broke so I replaced it. Since I bought it I only drove 400 kms. Now i can only sit in my car and listen to V8 sounds on a cassette although most of the speakers are blown. How about that for a car in near mint condition? But enough self pitty...... I'll take the car to the Porsche specialist as soon as I have the money to pay for an inspection....untill then I try to forget everything I read about TBF. I'll just wait for verdict. After the inspection I'll post again.

Thanks again,
Tim

Ben

My 928 suffered TBF, i've just finished putting in a 'new' engine. I probably only drove it 1000 miles in total over 2 years. I only saw the damage when I had the oil sump off changing the gasket and engine mounts.
Got my road worthiness inspection tomorrow, so hopefully that will be another 928 back on the road then.

My torque tube feels like it needs the bearings changing though now Its one thing after another with these cars!

Mrmerlin

disconnect the battery so it will have some juice to open and close the windows

Leon Speed

Hi Tim,

Which Porsche specialist are you taking it to? I'd like to help if I can - I can swing by one of these days if you live anywhere near Amstelveen? I have a '89 automatic S4 as well. Would love to see yours.