Federalized Euro 928
12-12-2009, 02:39 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Federalized Euro 928
With several recent posts on Euro cars, I would like to know what particular items were Federalized on the 1978-1986 Euro 928s. I bought a nice 1985 Euro 2 years ago which does not appear to be Federalized. It still has the Euro dash (71,000 Kilometers), German lingo, big headlights, ect. Can some experts shine some light on the 928 Euro federalized features. Also, Chuck, is it possible to have a Euro section in the 928 Registry outlining some of these features?
12-12-2009, 03:37 PM
#2
Track Day
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when it came to federalization nothing is set in stone and it appeared to be quite random depending on federal shop or state doing the work.
some of the euro cars had steel reinforcements inside doors and bumpers,O2 senors,cats,smog pumps ,neutronic boxes,and dreaded ugly side signal markers installed.many also had euro headlights and german intrumentation converted to US.
some euro cars were rather untouched while others were hacked.totally random.hope this helps.
some of the euro cars had steel reinforcements inside doors and bumpers,O2 senors,cats,smog pumps ,neutronic boxes,and dreaded ugly side signal markers installed.many also had euro headlights and german intrumentation converted to US.
some euro cars were rather untouched while others were hacked.totally random.hope this helps.
Last edited by uzzi8865; 12-12-2009 at 04:13 PM.
12-12-2009, 04:37 PM
#3
Nordschleife Master
Tom,
You are EXACTLY right. In the '80's importing a car from Europe to the US was like bringing it to the wild west! Just depended on what shop ended up with the car. A Registered Importer was still needed to bring the car in, but just about anyone could become an RI at that time and the oversight was VERY LAX. NOT SO ANYMORE! Bringing a car in now it a VERY expensive and excruciating process. It certainly can be done, but YUCK and just open your wallet and all your other money filled accounts and dump it at the feet of your RI!
Just look at my sig line to know how I know all this!
A nice '85 that has been barely touched would be a REAL SWEET CAR!
Hey, Tom, just saw you are in Montgomery. My grandparents used to live in Pinehurst. Not far from you. We just had 16 people at our 2nd Saturday 928 gathering in Austin and the weather was bad. Pick a nice 2nd Saturday this coming spring and bring the Houston clan out! You, Don Carter, Mike Sawran, Bill Perry...there are a few others too... Love to have you guys join us! I would also like to see more pics of your car Tom, it looks GREAT!
You are EXACTLY right. In the '80's importing a car from Europe to the US was like bringing it to the wild west! Just depended on what shop ended up with the car. A Registered Importer was still needed to bring the car in, but just about anyone could become an RI at that time and the oversight was VERY LAX. NOT SO ANYMORE! Bringing a car in now it a VERY expensive and excruciating process. It certainly can be done, but YUCK and just open your wallet and all your other money filled accounts and dump it at the feet of your RI!
Just look at my sig line to know how I know all this!A nice '85 that has been barely touched would be a REAL SWEET CAR!
Hey, Tom, just saw you are in Montgomery. My grandparents used to live in Pinehurst. Not far from you. We just had 16 people at our 2nd Saturday 928 gathering in Austin and the weather was bad. Pick a nice 2nd Saturday this coming spring and bring the Houston clan out! You, Don Carter, Mike Sawran, Bill Perry...there are a few others too... Love to have you guys join us! I would also like to see more pics of your car Tom, it looks GREAT!
12-12-2009, 05:04 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
I would probably would be easier to tell you the Euro vs. US differences, from the factory. In general terms with respect to US federalization, meaning may or may not have been federalized.
Headlamps: Euro - 8' H4, US - 7" USDOT
Euro had headlamp adjusters, US had no adjustment
Sidenote: they just cut the hydraulic line for the adjuster, and left everything else intact
Different driving/fog light configuration (noted but never seen this federalized, my guess is due to wiring complexity)
Euro had turn signal side markers behind front quarter wheel well, US had 4 corner markers
US had side impact bar in door, Euro had none
Euro had rear fog light, US none (commonly left intact with wire either disconnected or cut)
US had rear bumperettes, Euro had none
US had impact absorbing bumper struts, Euro had fixed (not sure if this applied to both front and rear)
Different license plate brackets
US had catalytic converter w/O2 sensor (with different brains for closed loop operation), Euro had none (with fixed map, open loop brains)
Sidenote: Some Euros upon federalization, had cats added, along with O2 sensor and auxilliary Lambda control unit piggybacked
US gauge cluster read MPH w/odo tracking miles, and warning lamps in English
US gauge cluster read KPH w/odo tracking kilometers, and warning lamps in German
Sidenote: Typically, I've seen only the speedo swapped out
Pod **** cluster different (noted but never seen this federalized, my guess is due to wiring complexity)
HVAC head: Euro reads Celsius, US read Fahrenheit (I've never seen this swapped out)
Common understanding is the motor differences are left untouched.
This includes the smog pump equipment, which was fitted to both Euro and US.
Two main sign-offs for US fedralization were Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). So most federalization changes made were for safety and environment.
Let me know if I missed anything....
Headlamps: Euro - 8' H4, US - 7" USDOT
Euro had headlamp adjusters, US had no adjustment
Sidenote: they just cut the hydraulic line for the adjuster, and left everything else intact
Different driving/fog light configuration (noted but never seen this federalized, my guess is due to wiring complexity)
Euro had turn signal side markers behind front quarter wheel well, US had 4 corner markers
US had side impact bar in door, Euro had none
Euro had rear fog light, US none (commonly left intact with wire either disconnected or cut)
US had rear bumperettes, Euro had none
US had impact absorbing bumper struts, Euro had fixed (not sure if this applied to both front and rear)
Different license plate brackets
US had catalytic converter w/O2 sensor (with different brains for closed loop operation), Euro had none (with fixed map, open loop brains)
Sidenote: Some Euros upon federalization, had cats added, along with O2 sensor and auxilliary Lambda control unit piggybacked
US gauge cluster read MPH w/odo tracking miles, and warning lamps in English
US gauge cluster read KPH w/odo tracking kilometers, and warning lamps in German
Sidenote: Typically, I've seen only the speedo swapped out
Pod **** cluster different (noted but never seen this federalized, my guess is due to wiring complexity)
HVAC head: Euro reads Celsius, US read Fahrenheit (I've never seen this swapped out)
Common understanding is the motor differences are left untouched.
This includes the smog pump equipment, which was fitted to both Euro and US.
Two main sign-offs for US fedralization were Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). So most federalization changes made were for safety and environment.
Let me know if I missed anything....
Last edited by Jadz928; 12-12-2009 at 08:34 PM.
12-12-2009, 05:22 PM
#5
Nordschleife Master
Toward the end of the 80's the whole import thing tightened up. I remember people telling me all the Euro gear like headlights had to be shown to DOT as destroyed. Weird piggy back O2 controllers get common in later years, but with no standard between different import shops. Add twenty years and a few owners and anything is possible.
OTOH many of the Euro's were brought over by military personnel, and as a group nobody knows more ways around red tape. Many states still will register and license just about anything with a bill of sale.
OTOH many of the Euro's were brought over by military personnel, and as a group nobody knows more ways around red tape. Many states still will register and license just about anything with a bill of sale.
12-12-2009, 05:59 PM
#6
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Euro had rear fog light, US none (commonly left intact with wire either disconnected or cut)
US had impact absorbing bumper struts, Euro had fixed (not sure if this applied to both front and rear)
Different license plate brackets
US had catalytic converter w/O2 sensor (with different brains for closed loop operation), Euro had none (with fixed map, open loop brains)
gauge cluster read KPH w/odo tracking kilometers, and warning lamps in German
Common understanding is the motor differences are left untouched.
This includes the smog pump equipment, which was fitted to both Euro and US.
This includes the smog pump equipment, which was fitted to both Euro and US.
12-13-2009, 05:47 PM
#7
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The federalization labs had to submit forms and photos showing that the cars were made DOT legal.....many quickly realized that one photo of a dash looked like any other. So the vast majority cheated the process with few cars actually getting everthing done. And as was often the case the owners wanted the Euro bits and simply put them back on the car.....like the H-4 headlights. For the side impact door bars I have seen broom sticks painted black 
looks like steel pipe !
looks like steel pipe !
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12-13-2009, 07:55 PM
#8
Drifting
According to Porsche AG, MY 85 included the euro's for placing of side impact beams in doors for all 928's. (I mentioned this in the new boston area 84 euro thread)
MY 1985 brought big changes to the Euro models, Porsche made a special pamphlet that is on the CD
Included was a change from an external antennae to the one embedded in the windshield
The windshield was also special with 3 layers and another covering on the inside that makes stickers a major pain (seemed like a very strong, safe design, mixing glass and plastic)
Many other changes from seats and dash connectors to mechanicals, all in that booklet on Morehouse CD.
(Would be nice if someone would post pics of it, my CD is at another location.)
I believe Euro's were first with ABS. Would like to know from US 928 owners on that.
Pods seem to have many combinations km/mile and language.
No 2 euro's seem alike in post factory changes.
MY 1985 brought big changes to the Euro models, Porsche made a special pamphlet that is on the CD
Included was a change from an external antennae to the one embedded in the windshield
The windshield was also special with 3 layers and another covering on the inside that makes stickers a major pain (seemed like a very strong, safe design, mixing glass and plastic)
Many other changes from seats and dash connectors to mechanicals, all in that booklet on Morehouse CD.
(Would be nice if someone would post pics of it, my CD is at another location.)
I believe Euro's were first with ABS. Would like to know from US 928 owners on that.
Pods seem to have many combinations km/mile and language.
No 2 euro's seem alike in post factory changes.
12-13-2009, 08:05 PM
#9
Nordschleife Master
My car got marker lights on the corners, the Euro ones were disconnected, a MPH speedo and the headlight aiming tubes cut. No cats. No door bars. No hydraulic bumper mounts. No US headlights. I filled the side markers and connected up the Euro marker lights.
I wish I had the dual rear foglights.
I wish I had the dual rear foglights.
12-13-2009, 08:09 PM
#10
Nordschleife Master
Glen,
Glad you went back to the Euro side markers! I think that is a MUCH better way to go and I have NO IDEA why the US didn't like that.
Some of the cars only had the SINGLE rear fog... I don't know why... I have seen them both ways!
Glad you went back to the Euro side markers! I think that is a MUCH better way to go and I have NO IDEA why the US didn't like that.
Some of the cars only had the SINGLE rear fog... I don't know why... I have seen them both ways!
12-13-2009, 08:11 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
According to Porsche AG, MY 85 included the euro's for placing of side impact beams in doors for all 928's. (I mentioned this in the new boston area 84 euro thread)
MY 1985 brought big changes to the Euro models, Porsche made a special pamphlet that is on the CD
Included was a change from an external antennae to the one embedded in the windshield
The windshield was also special with 3 layers and another covering on the inside that makes stickers a major pain (seemed like a very strong, safe design, mixing glass and plastic)
Many other changes from seats and dash connectors to mechanicals, all in that booklet on Morehouse CD.
(Would be nice if someone would post pics of it, my CD is at another location.)
I believe Euro's were first with ABS. Would like to know from US 928 owners on that.
Pods seem to have many combinations km/mile and language.
No 2 euro's seem alike in post factory changes.
MY 1985 brought big changes to the Euro models, Porsche made a special pamphlet that is on the CD
Included was a change from an external antennae to the one embedded in the windshield
The windshield was also special with 3 layers and another covering on the inside that makes stickers a major pain (seemed like a very strong, safe design, mixing glass and plastic)
Many other changes from seats and dash connectors to mechanicals, all in that booklet on Morehouse CD.
(Would be nice if someone would post pics of it, my CD is at another location.)
I believe Euro's were first with ABS. Would like to know from US 928 owners on that.
Pods seem to have many combinations km/mile and language.
No 2 euro's seem alike in post factory changes.
You would need to live in Great Britain. Only place that got the duallies.
12-13-2009, 08:45 PM
#12
Drifting
Yes you are correct ^^, then I would add that I believe the US did not like the 3 layer windshield and wanted that changed out.
And that the LH euro's were open loop and would never run properly if somehow converted to closed loop, either by substituting a US brain or other tricks.
The euro brain has no way to use input from an O2 sensor, nothing on the little motherboards. I have no idea what the epa may have wanted back then, but they can be made to run very clean and if one wants to put an O2 sensor in the exhaust pipe, then wire it to nowhere.
And that the LH euro's were open loop and would never run properly if somehow converted to closed loop, either by substituting a US brain or other tricks.
The euro brain has no way to use input from an O2 sensor, nothing on the little motherboards. I have no idea what the epa may have wanted back then, but they can be made to run very clean and if one wants to put an O2 sensor in the exhaust pipe, then wire it to nowhere.
12-14-2009, 04:28 AM
#13
Nordschleife Master
Wild guess, but I think O2 lambda control and catalytic converters were made to work with each other. O2 lambda control constantly cycles in closed loop between slightly rich and slightly lean, and the lean cycles burn off the cats and keep them clean or something. Could be the cats also need the rich cycles, but without o2 sensors you will get long periods of either lean or rich, and I suspect that kills the cats.
Several Euros I know of run fine converted to US brains with O2 loops and special chips. I suspect further refinement is needed in the chips for best power etc., but as is they work ok. Its a pretty sure bet this is more effective than anything done piggy back style during federalizing.
Several Euros I know of run fine converted to US brains with O2 loops and special chips. I suspect further refinement is needed in the chips for best power etc., but as is they work ok. Its a pretty sure bet this is more effective than anything done piggy back style during federalizing.
12-14-2009, 10:25 AM
#14
Drifting
Here's the thing about the brains and the engines.
The brain takes in info from the sensors, does a calculation, looking at its pre-programmed MAP and then sends out a signal telling the injectors how to squirt and the spark when to spark. This is all very specific to the car model. (simplified)
The engine is set-up in a certain way, again very soecific - Throttle body size, plenum shape, intake runners, cam lobe shape, lift, duration, etc EVEN the injectors themselves 19lb. 24lb high impedance, low impedence........................ not to mention COMPRESSION !
The LH euro engine is designed to achieve max tq in the mid 4000's and peak hp in the 5000's. I believe the 85 US is designed to achieve peak TQ in the 2000's or at least much lower.
So when you say it will run OK, maybe. But it will not run close to what it was designed to do. The amount of air and fuel will be different and compressed different than the brain believes.
At least back in the day when these were imported. There was no sharktuner and no John Speake.
An 85 Euro and an 85 US are very different engines in major ways.
My euro runs great, as mentioned the other day top end much better than factory quote and I am confident in saying 0-60 in the 5.3 range.
And it runs smooth, that is the euro trademark. Smooth, hard, high revving engine, faster the faster it goes with power going almost vertical near the top.
As far as cats, I studied them too and from what I read before purchasing the hiflow SS is that there is no voodoo going on just simple chemistry. I have also tuned mine on a dyno for A/F using 2 RRFPR's and a very open exhaust.
The brain takes in info from the sensors, does a calculation, looking at its pre-programmed MAP and then sends out a signal telling the injectors how to squirt and the spark when to spark. This is all very specific to the car model. (simplified)
The engine is set-up in a certain way, again very soecific - Throttle body size, plenum shape, intake runners, cam lobe shape, lift, duration, etc EVEN the injectors themselves 19lb. 24lb high impedance, low impedence........................ not to mention COMPRESSION !
The LH euro engine is designed to achieve max tq in the mid 4000's and peak hp in the 5000's. I believe the 85 US is designed to achieve peak TQ in the 2000's or at least much lower.
So when you say it will run OK, maybe. But it will not run close to what it was designed to do. The amount of air and fuel will be different and compressed different than the brain believes.
At least back in the day when these were imported. There was no sharktuner and no John Speake.
An 85 Euro and an 85 US are very different engines in major ways.
My euro runs great, as mentioned the other day top end much better than factory quote and I am confident in saying 0-60 in the 5.3 range.
And it runs smooth, that is the euro trademark. Smooth, hard, high revving engine, faster the faster it goes with power going almost vertical near the top.
As far as cats, I studied them too and from what I read before purchasing the hiflow SS is that there is no voodoo going on just simple chemistry. I have also tuned mine on a dyno for A/F using 2 RRFPR's and a very open exhaust.
12-14-2009, 10:57 AM
#15
Man of many SIGs
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Tell me more about this piggyback O2 sensor box. I have a 78 Euro ( CIS ) that i just noticed has an O2 sensor screwed into the pass side header. WTF? How would this control anything on a CIS?