Oil in the water. what does it mean?? UPDATE: WATER IN THE OIL TOO!! :(
12-28-2009, 04:29 AM
#31
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks Greg. Ill get it professionally tested tomorrow, but I just filled the radiator with water, with the oil section open to see if there is a slow leak.
I did a slight pressure test, but no where near the pressure of a working system, however, the drastic change in water level, has me thinking cracked block, head or failed head gasket. the fact that the water level dropped and the oil level raised by 2 quarts and I pulled 2 quarts out of the oil pan, makes me think things are not good.
What do you think? Overheating for a few seconds while driving it around my block? Or maybe the accident made a crack that has gotten worse with some spririted load and rpm?
mk
I did a slight pressure test, but no where near the pressure of a working system, however, the drastic change in water level, has me thinking cracked block, head or failed head gasket. the fact that the water level dropped and the oil level raised by 2 quarts and I pulled 2 quarts out of the oil pan, makes me think things are not good.
What do you think? Overheating for a few seconds while driving it around my block? Or maybe the accident made a crack that has gotten worse with some spririted load and rpm?
mk
Seems like you could have already had this pressure tested to make sure that is the problem...sure would save a whole bunch of speculation.
Let me know what you find out when you pressure test the silly thing. I've got one at the shop, sitting there for you, but not really anxious to ship it around California, unless you actually need it.
Let me know what you find out when you pressure test the silly thing. I've got one at the shop, sitting there for you, but not really anxious to ship it around California, unless you actually need it.
12-28-2009, 01:41 PM
#32
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Thread Starter
UPDATE: I filled the radiator with water and left it overnight, with the oil cooler side open. no water leaked out of the oil cooler, at least for gravity forced water leaks to the cooler side.
to me, it really looks like a cracked block or head. how else could that much water leak out into the oil pan? is there that much water in the heads to leak out? cracked block, maybe at the base of the cylinder. Fixable if it is?
any other guesses?
to me, it really looks like a cracked block or head. how else could that much water leak out into the oil pan? is there that much water in the heads to leak out? cracked block, maybe at the base of the cylinder. Fixable if it is?
any other guesses?
I just went to take out the radiator, and noticed after not looking at it for a week, the water was really low. lost about 2 quarts. hmm, Oil level magically is way over filled. Hmm, could it be the Amsoil fairy just giving me more than my fair share? water was leaking into the oil! and because the oil level has raised, is it possible that this issue could still be the radiator? could the water leaking through the oil cooler, then pass through the oil lines and then fill into the pan?
Since we all know that oil is lighter than water, i pulled the drain plug on the oil pan, and sure enough, it was like a faucet. 1-2 quarts of water came out, and then pure oil and plugged it up. got another container and drained the rest which was about 7 quarts of oil with no water.
I was able to pressurize the oil cooler, by only 3psi, and there was no leaking or hissing. did the same to the water side on the radiator, sealed as far as I can tell. now, does it leak under 5bar 70psi? I dont know. but, how did so much oil enter the engine, if it came via the oil cooler without an obvious leak. PLUS, the fact that so much water entered the engine while I was away.
Cracked block from the accident?
warped heads from the running of the engine without fans and when the red light came on, I shut it down?
backfiring from the cracked distributor cap, causing a blown headgasket?
If blown headgasket, I should probably check all the cylinders for compression before I pull the engine.
Looks bad folks. What do you all think of the possiblities?
Thanks,
Mark
Since we all know that oil is lighter than water, i pulled the drain plug on the oil pan, and sure enough, it was like a faucet. 1-2 quarts of water came out, and then pure oil and plugged it up. got another container and drained the rest which was about 7 quarts of oil with no water.
I was able to pressurize the oil cooler, by only 3psi, and there was no leaking or hissing. did the same to the water side on the radiator, sealed as far as I can tell. now, does it leak under 5bar 70psi? I dont know. but, how did so much oil enter the engine, if it came via the oil cooler without an obvious leak. PLUS, the fact that so much water entered the engine while I was away.
Cracked block from the accident?
warped heads from the running of the engine without fans and when the red light came on, I shut it down?
backfiring from the cracked distributor cap, causing a blown headgasket?
If blown headgasket, I should probably check all the cylinders for compression before I pull the engine.
Looks bad folks. What do you all think of the possiblities?
Thanks,
Mark
12-28-2009, 02:28 PM
#33
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How can you not know the source of this, a week later? You're torturing yourself!
Cometic gasket will not "blow" from a backfire. They could easily be leaking, however.
Pull all the spark plugs. Fill and bleed the cooling system. Install pressure tester to system. Pump up to 14 lbs., with radiator pressure tester. If you don't have one...you should....go buy one. No one can seriously work on a water cooled car without a water system tester. Wait to see where the water comes out. If nothing comes out, crank the engine over with the starter (plugs out!!!!) If it is a head gasket, you should be able to have it blow out of a cylinder after 15 minutes on the pressure tester. (It will look like you are at Yellowstone from the cylinder that is leaking.)
Cometic gasket will not "blow" from a backfire. They could easily be leaking, however.
Pull all the spark plugs. Fill and bleed the cooling system. Install pressure tester to system. Pump up to 14 lbs., with radiator pressure tester. If you don't have one...you should....go buy one. No one can seriously work on a water cooled car without a water system tester. Wait to see where the water comes out. If nothing comes out, crank the engine over with the starter (plugs out!!!!) If it is a head gasket, you should be able to have it blow out of a cylinder after 15 minutes on the pressure tester. (It will look like you are at Yellowstone from the cylinder that is leaking.)
__________________
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
12-28-2009, 05:10 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
yes, your right. TORTURE!
Ill pull the plugs and fill the system.
Im still wondering, how that much water could leak from a radiator into the oil via the oil cooling lines, expecially, when 3psi and gravity overnight does nothing.
Also, if the fire ring is secure, as I think it is, as I wasnt losing water when it was hot and it wasnt over pressurizing the system, how do I check for a breach of the head gasket between the oil and water sections. there was very little oil in the water, but 2 quarts of water in the oil, after shut and cool down.
I think Anderson lost a block, and didnt that put water in the oil? can a head lose this much oil if it was a head gasket or cracked head? Im thinking for that much oil to enter the oil pan, it has to come from the water jacket, but I guess, even a head gasket, will drain the over flow reservior first, then its contents, so I guess anything is possible.
Thanks for the help. Off to the Kragens for a water system tester.
mk
Ill pull the plugs and fill the system.
Im still wondering, how that much water could leak from a radiator into the oil via the oil cooling lines, expecially, when 3psi and gravity overnight does nothing.
Also, if the fire ring is secure, as I think it is, as I wasnt losing water when it was hot and it wasnt over pressurizing the system, how do I check for a breach of the head gasket between the oil and water sections. there was very little oil in the water, but 2 quarts of water in the oil, after shut and cool down.
I think Anderson lost a block, and didnt that put water in the oil? can a head lose this much oil if it was a head gasket or cracked head? Im thinking for that much oil to enter the oil pan, it has to come from the water jacket, but I guess, even a head gasket, will drain the over flow reservior first, then its contents, so I guess anything is possible.
Thanks for the help. Off to the Kragens for a water system tester.
mk
How can you not know the source of this, a week later? You're torturing yourself!
Cometic gasket will not "blow" from a backfire. They could easily be leaking, however.
Pull all the spark plugs. Fill and bleed the cooling system. Install pressure tester to system. Pump up to 14 lbs., with radiator pressure tester. If you don't have one...you should....go buy one. No one can seriously work on a water cooled car without a water system tester. Wait to see where the water comes out. If nothing comes out, crank the engine over with the starter (plugs out!!!!) If it is a head gasket, you should be able to have it blow out of a cylinder after 15 minutes on the pressure tester. (It will look like you are at Yellowstone from the cylinder that is leaking.)
Cometic gasket will not "blow" from a backfire. They could easily be leaking, however.
Pull all the spark plugs. Fill and bleed the cooling system. Install pressure tester to system. Pump up to 14 lbs., with radiator pressure tester. If you don't have one...you should....go buy one. No one can seriously work on a water cooled car without a water system tester. Wait to see where the water comes out. If nothing comes out, crank the engine over with the starter (plugs out!!!!) If it is a head gasket, you should be able to have it blow out of a cylinder after 15 minutes on the pressure tester. (It will look like you are at Yellowstone from the cylinder that is leaking.)
12-28-2009, 06:46 PM
#35
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
Disconnect the cooler lines from the rad, then pressurise the coolant system up to normal operating pressure, I think it's 16psi, and see if coolant leaks out of the ports. If it doesn't ,the leak is in the engine.
12-28-2009, 09:03 PM
#36
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Mark:
Tough to imagine oil in the water from a crack in the block. Also tough to get oil in the water from a head gasket. I'm still betting oil cooler.
Tough to imagine oil in the water from a crack in the block. Also tough to get oil in the water from a head gasket. I'm still betting oil cooler.
12-28-2009, 09:05 PM
#37
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Yup. Doesn't seem that hard....not sure why Mark is torturing himself so much....starting to think he likes it....
12-29-2009, 03:53 AM
#39
Addict
Rennlist Member
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Some distant memories of initially unfathomable coolant leaks from rennlist email days suggest it is not uncommon for the oil cooler to initially fail in the following way.
No leak in either direction when engine cold and not running.
Tiny leak of oil into coolant when engine running - enough to make coolant oily but no significant volume of oil changes places
Larger leak of coolant into oil when engine hot but not running ( ie coolant pressurised due to temperature but oil pressure at zero) enough to affect coolant level in the bottle.
I have heard of this scenario more than once - sometimes without the oil leak into coolant when engine running - ie leak starts off as a one way coolant into oil leak and only happens on shutdown.
I hope this is the problem and not one of the other scarier possibilities.
This wold fit with t
No leak in either direction when engine cold and not running.
Tiny leak of oil into coolant when engine running - enough to make coolant oily but no significant volume of oil changes places
Larger leak of coolant into oil when engine hot but not running ( ie coolant pressurised due to temperature but oil pressure at zero) enough to affect coolant level in the bottle.
I have heard of this scenario more than once - sometimes without the oil leak into coolant when engine running - ie leak starts off as a one way coolant into oil leak and only happens on shutdown.
I hope this is the problem and not one of the other scarier possibilities.
This wold fit with t
12-29-2009, 10:27 AM
#40
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
What im picturing in my nightmare, is a crack in the block at the base of one of the cylinders. no oil presure to put oil in the water, but water can drip drip drip when cold into the pan. However why did the system keep pressure for a while when i shut it down? so, maybe its a head gasket, where when hot, everything is sealed fairly well, and then when it all cools, there is a breech in the head gasket that allows for a drip drip drip into the oil galley as the water seeps through the head gasket to the oil passage.
also, this doesnt explain the oil in the water. the only way I could think of that happening, is if that breach or warped head was near that rear of the head on the passenger side, pressure oil passage. then oil could, under pressure seep to the water jacket through the head gasket, and then during shut down, the water could seep back through it and the adjacent oil return passages.
I blew as hard as I could on the oil fitting on the radator and on the water side and although its only about 3psi, it felt like they were both sealed. the radiator is at the shop right now for the pressure test on both sides.
my bet is warped heads as I cant imagine that cometic gasket failing.
I also did a full compression test last night and all cylinders are 180psi cold. same as when engine was newly built. 2 rotations of tested cylinder, only, so the fire ring on the headgasket seems to be ok, but that is a little crude of test for what Im looking for.
Ill know about 10:30am today about the radiator.
thanks,
Mk
PS. Remember, the system was full of water, having a slight oil slick in the reservior, and then when I looked a week later, the water had drained into the oil pan, 2 quarts worth.
also, this doesnt explain the oil in the water. the only way I could think of that happening, is if that breach or warped head was near that rear of the head on the passenger side, pressure oil passage. then oil could, under pressure seep to the water jacket through the head gasket, and then during shut down, the water could seep back through it and the adjacent oil return passages.
I blew as hard as I could on the oil fitting on the radator and on the water side and although its only about 3psi, it felt like they were both sealed. the radiator is at the shop right now for the pressure test on both sides.
my bet is warped heads as I cant imagine that cometic gasket failing.
I also did a full compression test last night and all cylinders are 180psi cold. same as when engine was newly built. 2 rotations of tested cylinder, only, so the fire ring on the headgasket seems to be ok, but that is a little crude of test for what Im looking for.
Ill know about 10:30am today about the radiator.
thanks,
Mk
PS. Remember, the system was full of water, having a slight oil slick in the reservior, and then when I looked a week later, the water had drained into the oil pan, 2 quarts worth.
12-29-2009, 01:24 PM
#41
Mark, when running, the oil pressure is much higher than the water pressure and oil can go into the water. When hot and not running, water pressure is much higher than oil pressure which is zero. Ask any 951 owner about quarts of water from the oil cooler to the sump. It happens.
BTW, look for a PM. Daniel
BTW, look for a PM. Daniel
12-29-2009, 01:49 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I hope this is it. as Greg has mentioned, im torchering myself about it right now!
But, the problem with the scenario is that after the engine shut off, the oil slick was present in the overflow container. (for about a day, and as it had been there for a few days since I ran the car fairly hard) 5 days later, all the water drained into the oil pan.
But, the problem with the scenario is that after the engine shut off, the oil slick was present in the overflow container. (for about a day, and as it had been there for a few days since I ran the car fairly hard) 5 days later, all the water drained into the oil pan.
Mark, when running, the oil pressure is much higher than the water pressure and oil can go into the water. When hot and not running, water pressure is much higher than oil pressure which is zero. Ask any 951 owner about quarts of water from the oil cooler to the sump. It happens.
BTW, look for a PM. Daniel
BTW, look for a PM. Daniel
12-29-2009, 02:00 PM
#43
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
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Since when does Mark's car even have an oil cooler???
12-29-2009, 02:17 PM
#44
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