Fabio421

Just because you want it to be true doesn't make it so. Read the E85 megathread I linked a few posts above. Most of the 951 guys aren't changing their fuel hoses to anything other than stock hoses and they aren't having any issues. I've tested 25 year old Porsche rubber fuel hoses and commonly available standard fuel injection hose for 2+ years in an 85% ethanol solution without any ill effects. In my opinion, if you are going to change out the fuel hoses, you might as well change them to a viton or teflon lined hose just because it is "best practice". The reality of the matter is that there are plenty of people who haven't and are not experiencing any failures. To say that your snow blowers fuel line is indicative of an automobiles fuel line is disingenuous. Small engines usually use crappy little plastic fuel lines. Cars do not. The reason this thread is here is to discuss the effects of ethanol in our cars. The example of the 951's running on ethanol is much more relevant than your snow blower in my opinion.

WallyP

Google "E15 warranty" (without the quotes) for some interesting reading...

tveltman

So you are defining "rusting" and corrosion as two separate events?

docmirror

I like pie.

GlenL

Wow!

Fear of change combines with speculation. Add in publicity seekers, polemicists and lawyers and you get a moral calamity!

15% is more than 10%. But will 15% damage more types of materials than the 10% brew? No. And don't you think the auto companies have tested at higher alcohol concentrations? Of course they have. They just want to indemnify themselves against warranty costs.

GlenL

Me, too!

tveltman

Here is some primary literature to illustrate that:

1. Corrosion is a complicated process that depends on many factors
2. As I said, under certain circumstances, EtOH is corrosive to aluminum alloy
3. The influence of water on the system is more complicated than "it causes corrosion"

Now, these tests are short-term tests at elevated temperatures. Nothing says that these tests corresponds to what actually happens to your engine/fuel tank/fuel line/whatever. Doubtless manufacturers do not want to be liable for fuel mixtures they are unsure of, but just because 10% is safe, you can't say for certain that 15% or 20% will be. Clearly it depends significantly on what else is in your fuel tank (or lines or whatever). No one on this forum has the capability to determine that, unless you happen to have several million dollars worth of lab equipment lying around your house, and also you assume that the fuel composition never changes (hint: that's a bad assumption, go ask the chemical engineers how feedstock source influences the final fuel product).

Tom. M

Talking to our underground storage tank inspectors here in WA State, they have noticed a couple of things..

There have been reports of really old fiberglass tanks being softened by E10 (not sure what really old means..my guess is first generation fiberglass predominantly in the late 90's).
There is evidence of surface corrosion of the fill pipes (aluminum) and grounds in the tank "buckets" more so with E10 fuels than with the regular fuels.

I've been using E10 fuel in my R100GS Paris Dakar moto.... it has a 9.25 gallon fiberglass tank (91 vintage) and I see (feel) no difference. Carbs have not gunked up and the bike runs as well as it did when I got it over 5 years ago..

Haven't seen E15 widespread here yet..

Eplebnista

To the extent it matters, fiberglass tanks were being installed in gas stations to replace steel tanks in the late 70s or early eighties...

Fabio421

In my last post I mentioned "best practice" being to change your fuel hoses to a teflon or viton lined hose if you are going to change them out. Based upon the experience of the 951 guys, this isn't a must but it's still better than replacing with plain old fuel injection hose. The same goes for hard lines and fuel rails. The hard fuel lines should be changed to stainless steel. For the fuel rails, I machined some fuel rails from 6063 aluminum extrusions and then had them "hard" annodized inside and out. The reason I had them annodized on the inside is because it is the best way to do it. The annodizing will protect the inside of the fuel rail from oxidation. The issue that aluminum can have when high concentrations of ethanol are run through it is that the water and ethanol are oxidizers which will cause the "white powder" that you see sometimes on aluminum. The ethanol also acts as a cleaner and it "scours" or "cleans" the oxidation off of the surface of the aluminum. So there is the possibility of an oxidation, cleaning, oxidation, cleaning, oxidation cycle that in theory could potentially corrode the rails or hard lines from the inside out. To say that this isn't possible is not truthful and I don't claim that, but I also think it is reckless to overstate this effect. Especially when we're talking about a 10% or 15% ethanol solution.

tveltman

I think your position is reasoned, and I apologize if it seemed like I was calling you out speciofically, that was not my intention at all. I was more trying to make the point that nothing is so simple and that conjecture is useless. Even the people who do the experiments professionally don't get it right all the time. For what it's worth, I also swapped my lines for teflon-lined braided stainless hose, since I had to redo the lines anyway.

If there is one thing that science has taught us, it is that what you think should happen and what does actually happen are frequently not the same thing. Unless an individual has some well-controlled evidence for his/her position, they should spend more time reading and researching and less time offering advice based on hearsay and observational evidence (PS did you know that 100% of people who drink milk die?!?!?!? OMG I'm never drinking milk again!)

BC

I didn't say that. My entire post was about e85. E10 is harmless.

BC

Why are you parsing my words instead of responding to the information?

tveltman

I did respond. See references listed above. Stating that "Ethanol is in no way corrosive" is neither factual nor clear, nor is it in agreement with your next statement regarding "aluminum rust". You first say that ethanol is not corrosive, and then describe how ethanol causes aluminum corrosion. I am merely pointing out that there is an inherent inconsistency with those two statements, and further providing evidence that ethanol can be corrosive. Note that I have taken pains all along to say that just because something is possible, that doesn't mean it will happen. I am merely pointing out that there may be foundation for such a concern, and increasing the percentage of ethanol in the fuel may have consequences with respect to component durability.

Also, don't lump me in the "nutjob, anti-environmentalism" camp (not that you necessarily are, only clarifying my position here). I have no problem with ethanol in fuel, in principle. Maybe there are economic problems, maybe not, but that isn't what I am commenting on either. All I am saying is that there could be cause for concern, and manufacturers could actually have a reason, apart from CYA, to warn against added ethanol.

Also, I encourage you to take pictures and document your lack of obvious corrosion/etc from use of ethanol fuel. For one, it will provide a record for yourself to compare against as the years go by, but moreover it will provide some reasonable data for the forum as to what the effects *really* are. Right now, that information is not publicly available, and would go a long way to assuage some people's fears, whether they are justified or not.

EDIT: upon reflection, I think that even if corrosion is a problem, your engine will experience TBF, or some turkey will hit you, or you will drive off a cliff long before the metallic corrosion becomes an issue. If you are keeping the car for 100k+ miles, then be concerned, if not, drive it like you stole it.

Fabio421

I didn't take it that way. No worries. I'm enjoying the debate.