Racing brake pad choices..... which one next?
04-03-2014, 10:01 PM
#31
Race Director
I think MK ordered the Raybestos ST41 front and ST43 rear? Not sure....I LOVE them and will never change....
One thing I am sure of....I can find more time in MK's racer....I am not saying with me driving, I am sure better tires-shocks-alignment It made a HUGE improvement in Casper and the Estate in the past....
Once casper version 2.0 is running 100% we will have to do a race weekend with NCRC (two races per day) and swap cars...I expect Casper to handle-brake better, but MK's will have a huge power advantage..... IF we put 4 of my 320/650-18 brand new super soft yoko slicks on MK's racer....with the Raybestos brake pads....It will be very fast....I think MK's record over the top at Thunderhill is around 1:58.....
One thing I am sure of....I can find more time in MK's racer....I am not saying with me driving, I am sure better tires-shocks-alignment It made a HUGE improvement in Casper and the Estate in the past....
Once casper version 2.0 is running 100% we will have to do a race weekend with NCRC (two races per day) and swap cars...I expect Casper to handle-brake better, but MK's will have a huge power advantage..... IF we put 4 of my 320/650-18 brand new super soft yoko slicks on MK's racer....with the Raybestos brake pads....It will be very fast....I think MK's record over the top at Thunderhill is around 1:58.....
04-03-2014, 10:55 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
given the components that are not working correctly for street let alone track use on the MK racer I have to wonder what tech inspection the cars go through? then once passed tech what components are allowed to be worked without having to be re-inspected.
I have horrible memories of a racing fatality caused by a brake component failing during a race.
I have horrible memories of a racing fatality caused by a brake component failing during a race.
04-05-2014, 12:19 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
There is no technical inspection of brakes, the world ends "down there" with wheel bearing play during the required annual inspection (Which is only allowed by certified people)
Brake conditions change every race..its up to the owner/operator to self inspect and sign their logbook for every event after the yearly annual inspection.
Brake conditions change every race..its up to the owner/operator to self inspect and sign their logbook for every event after the yearly annual inspection.
04-17-2014, 04:33 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Well, I spent two days going through the brakes. (one day, ran through 2 bottles of Stoptech 660 so had to wait until today to finish the project after the shipment was received)
Was able to get the stripped bleeder out (what a chore) but he broken one is still there. So, I got the car on jack stands, all 4 tires off and went to town. used the replacement pressure bleeder AND the two man trick. Got all the fluid out first buy using the pressure bleeder on all 4 corners, then 2 man to fine tune the results . (got to have some pedal movement to get the air out of the master).
what I did with the broken bleeder caliper, was to remove the caliper. (easy) and then turn it upside down, loosen the cross over tube fitting at the caliper base (which is now pointed up ) and used the pressure bleeder and then two man technique (by opening and closing the fitting and having the fluid just fall out into a drain pan) to get all the new Stoptech 660 race fluid in there, as well as all the air out. Then, just bled the outside caliper fitting to finish the job. you could see and hear the burps of air coming out during the process.
It worked perfectly...... I was really thinking the pedal travel, spongy-ness was a master cylinder issue..... but then, after really attacking it, found that if the system is bled well, you get that perfect pedal! and its been a long time since the brakes have been perfect.
Bed'ed the pads (ST41) on the hyway 100mph to 60 about a dozen times, while holding the gas full throttle , and cooked them . All Bed'ed. And, the new fluid has about a 50 degree wet boiling point advantage over the ATF fluid Ive used for many many years.
New/used tires mounted and im ready to go.
next race: Thundreh
Was able to get the stripped bleeder out (what a chore) but he broken one is still there. So, I got the car on jack stands, all 4 tires off and went to town. used the replacement pressure bleeder AND the two man trick. Got all the fluid out first buy using the pressure bleeder on all 4 corners, then 2 man to fine tune the results . (got to have some pedal movement to get the air out of the master).
what I did with the broken bleeder caliper, was to remove the caliper. (easy) and then turn it upside down, loosen the cross over tube fitting at the caliper base (which is now pointed up ) and used the pressure bleeder and then two man technique (by opening and closing the fitting and having the fluid just fall out into a drain pan) to get all the new Stoptech 660 race fluid in there, as well as all the air out. Then, just bled the outside caliper fitting to finish the job. you could see and hear the burps of air coming out during the process.
It worked perfectly...... I was really thinking the pedal travel, spongy-ness was a master cylinder issue..... but then, after really attacking it, found that if the system is bled well, you get that perfect pedal! and its been a long time since the brakes have been perfect.
Bed'ed the pads (ST41) on the hyway 100mph to 60 about a dozen times, while holding the gas full throttle , and cooked them . All Bed'ed. And, the new fluid has about a 50 degree wet boiling point advantage over the ATF fluid Ive used for many many years.
New/used tires mounted and im ready to go.
next race: Thundreh
04-17-2014, 05:51 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
"100mph to 60 about a dozen times, while holding the gas full throttle , and cooked them"
---
If you don't get from them, what you expect in the near future, this is why.
These are not 30yr old technology pads...and I know nobody at PF told you to do that either, if you asked.
100-60 a few times, sure, while WOT in a high HP car...goodness no.
---
If you don't get from them, what you expect in the near future, this is why.
These are not 30yr old technology pads...and I know nobody at PF told you to do that either, if you asked.
100-60 a few times, sure, while WOT in a high HP car...goodness no.
04-17-2014, 06:24 PM
#36
Chronic Tool Dropper
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"... but the broken one is still there..." ???
What's keeping it in there? The end of the bleeder screw is a tapered/point that seats over the fluid port in the bottom of the hole. You can drill -almost- to the tip using a left-handed bit, until you get just past the threads but before the drill gets to the aluminum. You can then use a screw extractor to remove the last of the screw from the threads. The end of the bleeder screw is just sitting in the bottom of the hole, and usually comes out with a magnet. You can help it if needed with compressed air through the other port where the crossover line connects. Sometimes it takes a bunch of work with a small pick to get all the steel out of the aluminum caliper threads. Do not damage the seat with the drill. Very important! The caliper threads have to hold the screw against the hydraulic pressure through that relatively small port at the bottom of the seat in the caliper. It's a small hole, so the total thrust on the screw is small so long as the screw seals the hole completely.
What's keeping it in there? The end of the bleeder screw is a tapered/point that seats over the fluid port in the bottom of the hole. You can drill -almost- to the tip using a left-handed bit, until you get just past the threads but before the drill gets to the aluminum. You can then use a screw extractor to remove the last of the screw from the threads. The end of the bleeder screw is just sitting in the bottom of the hole, and usually comes out with a magnet. You can help it if needed with compressed air through the other port where the crossover line connects. Sometimes it takes a bunch of work with a small pick to get all the steel out of the aluminum caliper threads. Do not damage the seat with the drill. Very important! The caliper threads have to hold the screw against the hydraulic pressure through that relatively small port at the bottom of the seat in the caliper. It's a small hole, so the total thrust on the screw is small so long as the screw seals the hole completely.
04-17-2014, 08:38 PM
#38
Chronic Tool Dropper
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Mark: Replace the rears even though they aren't as worn as the fronts. Resurface all the rotors too. Give yourself the best chance of having good balanced brakes on all four wheels.
Congrats on the bleeding to get ALL the air out of the system. Go finish the half-fast job on that caliper that still has a broken bleeder stuck in one port. Seriously. The amount of time taken juggling the caliper to push air through and out the 'top' is more than it takes to do the right fix for the broken screw. Do It Like You Mean It.
Congrats on the bleeding to get ALL the air out of the system. Go finish the half-fast job on that caliper that still has a broken bleeder stuck in one port. Seriously. The amount of time taken juggling the caliper to push air through and out the 'top' is more than it takes to do the right fix for the broken screw. Do It Like You Mean It.
04-18-2014, 09:30 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Mark: Replace the rears even though they aren't as worn as the fronts. Resurface all the rotors too. Give yourself the best chance of having good balanced brakes on all four wheels.
there is so little braking force on the rears, I don't think it matters much. plus, I have the pagid blacks on the rear, half gone. probably going 5 -7 sets of front pads to 1 rear at this point. remember, I am a heavy trail braker and very hard straight line braker , so when the car stands on its nose, you don't want or need much rear brakes because they can literally can have only 20% of the weight on them. (and 10% or less at turn in for the inside rear tire)
Congrats on the bleeding to get ALL the air out of the system. Go finish the half-fast job on that caliper that still has a broken bleeder stuck in one port. Seriously. The amount of time taken juggling the caliper to push air through and out the 'top' is more than it takes to do the right fix for the broken screw. Do It Like You Mean It.
there is so little braking force on the rears, I don't think it matters much. plus, I have the pagid blacks on the rear, half gone. probably going 5 -7 sets of front pads to 1 rear at this point. remember, I am a heavy trail braker and very hard straight line braker , so when the car stands on its nose, you don't want or need much rear brakes because they can literally can have only 20% of the weight on them. (and 10% or less at turn in for the inside rear tire)
Congrats on the bleeding to get ALL the air out of the system. Go finish the half-fast job on that caliper that still has a broken bleeder stuck in one port. Seriously. The amount of time taken juggling the caliper to push air through and out the 'top' is more than it takes to do the right fix for the broken screw. Do It Like You Mean It.
yep, im not very big on rear brakes ... just enough to keep the rear stable under threshold braking. PLUS, you must know since the temp of the rears to front is about 200degrees F. less, the more aggressive pads don't work as well as they should in the rear. This is one of the reasons that you can and should use a lesser pad in the rear, even with more bias than I have.
"... but the broken one is still there..." ???
What's keeping it in there? The end of the bleeder screw is a tapered/point that seats over the fluid port in the bottom of the hole. You can drill -almost- to the tip using a left-handed bit, until you get just past the threads but before the drill gets to the aluminum. You can then use a screw extractor to remove the last of the screw from the threads. The end of the bleeder screw is just sitting in the bottom of the hole, and usually comes out with a magnet. You can help it if needed with compressed air through the other port where the crossover line connects. Sometimes it takes a bunch of work with a small pick to get all the steel out of the aluminum caliper threads. Do not damage the seat with the drill. Very important! The caliper threads have to hold the screw against the hydraulic pressure through that relatively small port at the bottom of the seat in the caliper. It's a small hole, so the total thrust on the screw is small so long as the screw seals the hole completely.
What's keeping it in there? The end of the bleeder screw is a tapered/point that seats over the fluid port in the bottom of the hole. You can drill -almost- to the tip using a left-handed bit, until you get just past the threads but before the drill gets to the aluminum. You can then use a screw extractor to remove the last of the screw from the threads. The end of the bleeder screw is just sitting in the bottom of the hole, and usually comes out with a magnet. You can help it if needed with compressed air through the other port where the crossover line connects. Sometimes it takes a bunch of work with a small pick to get all the steel out of the aluminum caliper threads. Do not damage the seat with the drill. Very important! The caliper threads have to hold the screw against the hydraulic pressure through that relatively small port at the bottom of the seat in the caliper. It's a small hole, so the total thrust on the screw is small so long as the screw seals the hole completely.
"100mph to 60 about a dozen times, while holding the gas full throttle , and cooked them"
---
If you don't get from them, what you expect in the near future, this is why.
These are not 30yr old technology pads...and I know nobody at PF told you to do that either, if you asked.
100-60 a few times, sure, while WOT in a high HP car...goodness no.
---
If you don't get from them, what you expect in the near future, this is why.
These are not 30yr old technology pads...and I know nobody at PF told you to do that either, if you asked.
100-60 a few times, sure, while WOT in a high HP car...goodness no.
04-18-2014, 09:33 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
And, im actually buying a brand new set of front tires too! yes... I know, check the east for the wisemen ! hopefully, I can get those shocks replaced by the time of the first race.
04-19-2014, 02:35 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
I could tell just from the bed in process that these are quite a bit differnnt than the PFC01 s or pagid blacks. after bedding, man the do have a lot of bite! cant wait to try them!!
Yes, it was a job. of course, its more complicated than it seems. you need to have the cross over pointing up, AND you need to put two old brake pads and a rear pad together to simulate a rotor so you don't blow out the pistons . it worked pretty well, but your right.... what a pain. im just scared to dig into the stripped fitting
yep, im not very big on rear brakes ... just enough to keep the rear stable under threshold braking. PLUS, you must know since the temp of the rears to front is about 200degrees F. less, the more aggressive pads don't work as well as they should in the rear. This is one of the reasons that you can and should use a lesser pad in the rear, even with more bias than I have.
youre making me feel a little more brave about attacking it now. Thanks!! so, just drill with a smaller than hold or fitting diameter drill and just before the end, stop? how do you know where the end is though? once you dig into that port, I imagine the caliper is junk
there is not a pad ive used yet, that doesn't need to be bedded and the resins cooked out.. pagid black, recently the PFC01's and now the raybestos ST41s. (supposed to be the most aggressive pad in the world). anyway, the stopping from 100 to 60 gets the heat in the pad, but by adding the WOT you can feel the pads fade from the start. every time after that, they get hotter and hotter and smellier. rest for a mile or so, and do it again. the second time, you can really fell the grip and they fade less , but take longer to get to that fade point where I stop. its only for a few seconds , but enough to really cook them. another few miles and a stop light, U turn, back on the freeway, and do it again. now they are perfect. its like a REAL lap on a track. otherwise, you are just slightly bedding the pads, and if you have to go out and qualify, its very dangerous. you need a few laps to cook the darn things or you need to be very very careful if you have a race or qual out of the pits with a new pad. its almost impossible to run hard out of the box. these might be better than most, but still require the process
Yes, it was a job. of course, its more complicated than it seems. you need to have the cross over pointing up, AND you need to put two old brake pads and a rear pad together to simulate a rotor so you don't blow out the pistons . it worked pretty well, but your right.... what a pain. im just scared to dig into the stripped fitting
yep, im not very big on rear brakes ... just enough to keep the rear stable under threshold braking. PLUS, you must know since the temp of the rears to front is about 200degrees F. less, the more aggressive pads don't work as well as they should in the rear. This is one of the reasons that you can and should use a lesser pad in the rear, even with more bias than I have.
youre making me feel a little more brave about attacking it now. Thanks!! so, just drill with a smaller than hold or fitting diameter drill and just before the end, stop? how do you know where the end is though? once you dig into that port, I imagine the caliper is junk
there is not a pad ive used yet, that doesn't need to be bedded and the resins cooked out.. pagid black, recently the PFC01's and now the raybestos ST41s. (supposed to be the most aggressive pad in the world). anyway, the stopping from 100 to 60 gets the heat in the pad, but by adding the WOT you can feel the pads fade from the start. every time after that, they get hotter and hotter and smellier. rest for a mile or so, and do it again. the second time, you can really fell the grip and they fade less , but take longer to get to that fade point where I stop. its only for a few seconds , but enough to really cook them. another few miles and a stop light, U turn, back on the freeway, and do it again. now they are perfect. its like a REAL lap on a track. otherwise, you are just slightly bedding the pads, and if you have to go out and qualify, its very dangerous. you need a few laps to cook the darn things or you need to be very very careful if you have a race or qual out of the pits with a new pad. its almost impossible to run hard out of the box. these might be better than most, but still require the process
Your understanding of pad technology isnt as universal as you think it is.
Remember, you've been using pads with a 20-30yr base behind them. These aint it.
Ask the supplier next time.
04-19-2014, 02:41 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
'yep, im not very big on rear brakes ... just enough to keep the rear stable under threshold braking. PLUS, you must know since the temp of the rears to front is about 200degrees F. less, the more aggressive pads don't work as well as they should in the rear. This is one of the reasons that you can and should use a lesser pad in the rear, even with more bias than I have."
----
What you have up front, wont let your rears warm up as much anymore, and they'll work MUCH less.
That's why the my pairing with the front 41's was as it is.
You're going to be almost an entirely front-bias car now without a complimentary temp/friction response in the rear.
----
What you have up front, wont let your rears warm up as much anymore, and they'll work MUCH less.
That's why the my pairing with the front 41's was as it is.
You're going to be almost an entirely front-bias car now without a complimentary temp/friction response in the rear.
04-19-2014, 05:48 PM
#44
Chronic Tool Dropper
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<<...>>
youre making me feel a little more brave about attacking it now. Thanks!! so, just drill with a smaller than hold or fitting diameter drill and just before the end, stop? how do you know where the end is though? once you dig into that port, I imagine the caliper is junk
<<...>>
youre making me feel a little more brave about attacking it now. Thanks!! so, just drill with a smaller than hold or fitting diameter drill and just before the end, stop? how do you know where the end is though? once you dig into that port, I imagine the caliper is junk
<<...>>
Mark--
Follow the directions I shared earlier. Use a drill press, with the caliper supported in a vise. Pull the other bleeder out, and MEASURE the depth of the bleeder hole from shoulder to bottom. You'll want the drill to stop BEFORE it can get to the bottom, so set the quill stop on the drill press a little higher than bottom of hole with your drill bit in the chuck. You can double-check your settings with a little modeling clay in the hole (body strip caulk or similar firm but not too sticky stuff will work in a pinch). Dip the bit in the 'test' hole to confirm that the drill doesn't get through the clay. Now rotate the caliper so the buggered hole is centered under the chuck, at the same height. (dial indicator on a magnetic base) Clamp the vise to the table securely so it won't walk around while you are drilling. With the quill stops set, you won't drill into the caliper. Go Slowly. Use a Left-Hand drill bit if you can. Don't walk off sideways into the threads. Use Heat (heat gun heat, not propane-torch heat) on the aluminum caliper to expand it off the steel bleed screw.
Better auto machine shops can probably do the whole thing for you in less than an hour if you bring them the caliper and the new bleeder screw. Call around. There are a few things that it pays to let the pro's handle, and this may be one of them.
04-20-2014, 03:06 AM
#45
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Mark--
Follow the directions I shared earlier. Use a drill press, with the caliper supported in a vise. Pull the other bleeder out, and MEASURE the depth of the bleeder hole from shoulder to bottom. You'll want the drill to stop BEFORE it can get to the bottom, so set the quill stop on the drill press a little higher than bottom of hole with your drill bit in the chuck. You can double-check your settings with a little modeling clay in the hole (body strip caulk or similar firm but not too sticky stuff will work in a pinch). Dip the bit in the 'test' hole to confirm that the drill doesn't get through the clay. Now rotate the caliper so the buggered hole is centered under the chuck, at the same height. (dial indicator on a magnetic base) Clamp the vise to the table securely so it won't walk around while you are drilling. With the quill stops set, you won't drill into the caliper. Go Slowly. Use a Left-Hand drill bit if you can. Don't walk off sideways into the threads. Use Heat (heat gun heat, not propane-torch heat) on the aluminum caliper to expand it off the steel bleed screw.
Better auto machine shops can probably do the whole thing for you in less than an hour if you bring them the caliper and the new bleeder screw. Call around. There are a few things that it pays to let the pro's handle, and this may be one of them.
Follow the directions I shared earlier. Use a drill press, with the caliper supported in a vise. Pull the other bleeder out, and MEASURE the depth of the bleeder hole from shoulder to bottom. You'll want the drill to stop BEFORE it can get to the bottom, so set the quill stop on the drill press a little higher than bottom of hole with your drill bit in the chuck. You can double-check your settings with a little modeling clay in the hole (body strip caulk or similar firm but not too sticky stuff will work in a pinch). Dip the bit in the 'test' hole to confirm that the drill doesn't get through the clay. Now rotate the caliper so the buggered hole is centered under the chuck, at the same height. (dial indicator on a magnetic base) Clamp the vise to the table securely so it won't walk around while you are drilling. With the quill stops set, you won't drill into the caliper. Go Slowly. Use a Left-Hand drill bit if you can. Don't walk off sideways into the threads. Use Heat (heat gun heat, not propane-torch heat) on the aluminum caliper to expand it off the steel bleed screw.
Better auto machine shops can probably do the whole thing for you in less than an hour if you bring them the caliper and the new bleeder screw. Call around. There are a few things that it pays to let the pro's handle, and this may be one of them.
But, ill do it after the next couple of races.