polecat702

If someone was to send me a set of the ducts I could use as a template, I'd make up a bunch in my sheet metal shop, and sell them for cost plus shipping. I'd also return the original ducts to their owner.

GregBBRD

I'm betting that all premature failures of all those mounts are from a lack of cooling.....

You've apparently seen hundreds fail.....I've installed hundreds and have never replaced a single mount. Maybe a difference in longitude?

I'll stand corrected, on the height of the mounts. Like I said, I've only installed one set of Volvo mounts and it seemed like the engine sat very high. I know it sat high enough that the limit stops had to be modified. I'll take your word that it is only 7mm higher than brand new Porsche mounts.

I'm used to working on Porsches....been doing it my entire life.

I'm also used to only making, providing, or using pieces that improve the breed.

"Here, use this...it will raise your engine, higher than Porsche ever intended, and thus raise the center of gravity", becomes a really tough thing for me to say to my customers....regardless of how "well heeled" they are.

I just can't imagine that sentence ever coming out of my mouth......regardless of who poor the person who is in front of me actually is.

But I can imagine sitting in a California courtroom, trying to explain to a jury that the increased center of gravity, only in the front, made the car oversteer, but that isn't the real reason why it the car crashed and killed the driver....

Try to keep in mind, that I didn't drag that person down to the bank, hold a gun to their head, and make them buy their Porsche. I didn't make the parts. I didn't make up the pricing for the parts. And the cars were the most expensive car Porsche ever produced, and it wasn't because of the price of the air in the tires!

I have to be very careful. I've been doing this my entire life. And I've found out a few important things:

1. If you touch a vehicle, everything that happens to that vehicle, in the next months, becomes your fault. If the vehicle gets a flat tire, a month after it was at your shop, you are somehow responsible.
2. People tend to make their problems your problem. They would prefer that ever little problem they have would get fixed, for free, instantly.
3. Regardless of what you say, up front, customers will never remember you saying anything you say. For instance, I tell everyone that Porsche and Laso make water pumps. I tell them that Laso has a terrible history of 928 water pump failures, but they are now making their fourth version of a 928 water pump.....which might be an improvement. I tell them, that I'm "sick" of "eating" Laso water pump failures....I've personally had to pay many times to warranty the labor involved in changing out one of these POS. I tell them that I will not warranty the labor, if a Laso water pump fails. I tell them the price difference between a Laso and a Porsche pump. They almost always buy the Laso....but will never remember the conversation about why I won't warranty the labor.
4. If you use a substandard part, #1, #2, and #3 will inevitably come back and bite you in the ***.

jeff spahn

Greg. I hear you. Even though I hear you, I went with the Volvo. If I crash, it isn't because of the 1" higher center of gravity. It's because I am driving like an idiot and did something I shouldn't have. My wife and attorney have been instructed that there are not frivolous lawsuits in my life and/or death. If I die crashing my car into a wall at 100, it is my fault, not the car's.

What it really boils down to is people need to take responsibility for THEIR choices. Greg, Roger, etc aren't at fault for giving them choices. Porsche make the mounts, Volvo makes the mounts. People choose what they choose.

Too many people are looking to point the blame finger at others when THEY make the choices.

I got hurt three weeks ago getting off the lift at the ski area a little too slow. Hit me in the back and flipped me over. Shattered my helmet, tore my groin something terrible. Would someone have sued for "defective product". You bet. Did I? Not a chance. I knew the lift worked the way it did for the last 15 years. I need to get my *** out of the way or suffer the consequences. Period.

ROG100

Greg you know me well enough to know that I fully understand what your are saying.

I sell parts and in most cases offer a 24 month/24,000 mile warranty on that part.

You not only sell parts but also provide the labor to install that part and in doing so in most cases also cover the warranty of said parts an labor.

I have a number of customers in the same situation as you but who tend to work on fairly stock cars - general work and maintenance of their customers cars. The vast majority of those "business" customers buy large quantities of Volvo MM's and Laso WP's. In the last two/three years I have had ZERO requests to replace any failed parts with those businesses. I know they would not hesitate to tell me. I know that because other parts that have failed (both Porsche, OE, OEM & Aftermarket) and I have replaced those parts.
Sean (one of my Business customers) is a good customer of mine and works exclusively on 928's and I have never had to replace a failed Laso WP in the last two/three years or a failed Volvo MM. Sean and his customers would certainly let me know if a failure occurred I can assure you.
IIRC I can think of two failures in the last two/three years out of hundreds of Laso WP's sold. Zero Volvo MM failure apart from one stud being over torqued.
There are so few Porsche MM's and water pumps sold that it would be difficult to even check on statistical failure rates.
Mechanical parts fail that is a fact of live.

GregBBRD

The whole Laso water pump/unproven aftermarket part thing really gets me fired up.

I love it when people talk about "how expensive" I am....when in reality, because of the choices I make and because of my ability to quickly diagnosis things....I'm probably the cheapest 928 mechanic on the planet.

As you probably know, I personally believe that if Laso had never built a single water pump for the 928 application and there was only the factory unit available...the entire 928 community would be hundreds of thousands of dollars ahead.

The current "forth" version of their pump may be the best thing since sliced bread....time will tell....but the early versions had such high failure rates and caused so much damage, that it is difficult to ever forgive them.

And.....since it is impossible to tell the difference from the outside between any of the versions.....for us mechanics, they might as well still be making the original version. (Would it be that tough for them to identify their new plastic impeller pump with some sort of marking on the outside (Like: "Plastic Impeller Pump".....or "4th Version"?)

Case in point:

I'm working on a, '86 that needs a cam belt. Water pump is 10 years old....has way less than 10,000 miles on it. It is a Laso pump.....that is simple to determine, from the outside. Doesn't leak a drop....not a single sign of seepage out the weep hole. Bearing feels great and sounds great.

Hell, leave it alone, right?

A pump that doesn't leak a drop, after 10 years and less than 10,000 miles must be great, right?

Well, in the back of my head, I know that being 10 years old, it could very well be one of the dreaded "early version" pumps that will "kill" your block.

So, I'm forced to tell the customer that although it looks fine, we really need to take off a perfectly good water pump and look at it. Sure enough "early version" with the migrating impeller (and it had moved back enough to just touch the block).

So, I install a new design Laso, for the customer.

He got screwed. Royally screwed. He's bought two Laso pumps, paid labor twice. He could have bought one Porsche pump, 10 years ago and been money ahead, today.

On top of that, in another 10 years, probably some mechanic that heard that Laso made versions of 928 water pump that caused major damage is going to have to remove the pump again....to see which "version" it is....paying labor a third time.....and most likely, putting a third water pump on the engine!

This is the "typical" example of how the customer would have been many dollars ahead of the game if Laso had never built a single water pump for the 928 engine. I bet I "see" this same thing repeat itself ten times a year.

I'd love for you, Laso, or anyone else to explain to me how this "economical choice" saved this customer any money.

Hilton

Sounds like you need a release form for them to sign acknowledging they understand there's no warranty for that choice

DKWalser

Greg - Very interesting point about your strong distaste for Laso pumps, so strong you feel a need to replace one even though its not showing any signs of failure. How long have you felt that way? I ask for a couple of reasons:

First, my 1990 S4 was worked on by a well-known 928 mechanic in 2010. (I'm not going name any names because I don't think it would be fair.) All the belts, save the timing belt, were replaced at the time. The notes say that the timing belt and water pump were visually inspected and appeared to be okay. The car had 60,000 miles on it and was 20 years old. The timing belt and water pump were original to the car. Had the car been in your shop, would you have recommended replacing timing belt and water pump? I ask, because 5,000 miles and about 3 years later, I had those items replaced when I bought the car. By then, the water pump had developed a small leak and a slight wobble in the shaft.

Second, how much extra labor is it to replace the water pump while you're replacing the timing belt? I thought the conventional wisdom was to replace the pump while you're changing the belt. Yes, the pump might last another 60,000 miles. But, if it fails after another 30,000 miles, won't the labor total costs be much higher to replace the pump at that time than had you replaced the pump along with the belt?

Greg, I respect your opinion. A lot. Which is why I'm always concerned when (as you often do) challenge what I understand to be the common wisdom. When that happens, I believe I may have misunderstood the common wisdom, the common wisdom is wrong, or I misunderstood you.

GregBBRD

Hope this helps explain my logic patterns.

Hilton

A 928 mechanic decided that a 20 year old 60k mile belt should be left on the car?

Is the mechanic "well known" in the good sense, or notorious sense?

siscogts

Greg, why do you sell last pumps(still)? In my factory I put a big "warning sign" in the waiting area for my customers, telling what articles have been ddiscontinued /removed from catalog. So they can't ask for it anymore . do the same with laso pumps.

SeanR

It's always interesting how each shop does it's own thing over the course of time. On most things I follow the Greg Brown method of doing business. Water pumps I don't but I've not been doing this any where near as long as he has.

I've not had any Laso pump jobs back for a re-do in the last 6 years. I've also not had a Porsche pump in need of replacement in the past either but I've only had one customer request one. He had no problem spending the $450.00 over the Laso. Did have a couple of people request a rebuilt pump to be installed and one of them I sent to another shop because I knew it would be a major issue if it failed and I'd have to eat the replacement. It's kinda fun to fire customers It's also a great feeling to be in a situation where I can do so.

On a timing belt/water pump job I tell the customer straight up that the pump should be changed at the same time as the belt. Why you might ask? Sure there may not be any axial play in the shaft, no signs of leakage etc, but sure as **** once that car leaves the shop if it leaks it is my fault and I have to eat 10 hours of labor to redo it. I do give two choices for me to warranty it, new Laso or new Porsche. If they go rebuilt or provide their own, it's on them and sign on the dotted line.

Just some additional info, I've pulled off original belts that looked brand new on 90k mile cars and original belts on 40k mile cars that you could see through. Anytime those covers come off, that belt gets changed.

SeanR

Oh hell, just realized this was a thread about motor mounts.

So on that note: Time will tell about the Volvo's. I can say that 37 sets of Ford Solids that I've done are just fine and still going. 3 came back as they were the **** batch when production went to some other place that sucked. 13 sets of Volvo's are going strong and will continue to keep track of them.

GregBBRD

I think I'm down to my last set that I have tucked away, waiting for the appropriate person. (And that doesn't mean the person with the most money. I gave the set before this set to a customer.) I'd love it if someone would make them. Send me your contact info and I'll send them to you.

928 International sells a wonderful aluminum pan to replace the original plastic/fiberglass pan, but hasn't had any ducts for those pans, for years. I think that the pan, with the ducts missing, probably add more heat to the mounts than if the pan is completely removed.....

At any rate, I'd think that they would be able to sell a set of ducts to virtually every person that purchases a pan....

GregBBRD

Ask Joe Kotrla about Laso water pumps....I think you service his vehicle.

SeanR

Yup, and you should see his mounts