joehelendetroit

One might say that GM paid for the basic 928 design. Tony Lapine designed an Opel Corvette back in the early 70's before going to work for Porsche.

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...-corvette.html

Future928Owner

Just reading this interesting old thread. Car and Driver reprinted their 1978 review of the car's introduction. Background and driving experience by David E. Davis and technical overview by L.J.K. Setright. It is an interesting read. Setright goes into several of the decisions regarding engineering trade-offs and why some things are as they are.

Also interesting, Porsche spent $200 mil developing this car, compared to their annual sales of $600 mil! They were convinced that they had taken the 911 as far as they could. In the interviews with Davis, they talk about how they were able to take such a risk.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...8-porsche-928/

dr bob

The C&D article has been referenced a couple times in the last few weeks. Interesting look back at the impressions of the times. The US was still enjoying the effects of two manufactured oil crises, the auto and petro industries here were still trying to figure out tailpipe standards. Bob was interning at Standard Oil in California for a summer in the early '70's, with a team that had decided that no performance was an acceptable option to pass the even stricter California standards. The industry is at least three to five years ahead of the market when it comes to the mechanical stuff, so the low compression, low cylinder pressure, retarded timing, rich mixture plus EGR method of NOX control was the chosen method. "Perfomance" American cars of the time were still really heavy, helped by crash standards that added huge bumper appendages on shock absorbers to cars that had the aerodynamics of a piano crate and the frontal area of a large barn door.

The 928 arrived with more horsepower and 500 lbs less weight than the anemic American "competition" at the time. It was also priced in the relative stratosphere, at about 1.5x the Corvette numbers. The pricing put it in competition with the almost-Ferrari 246, but there was no comparison between them with either performance or build-quality. In actual US trim and particularly California trim, the 928 was faster than anything with a prancing horse on it. Few owners were willing to admit that their prancing horses had no running legs after Cali had their way.

So for American journalists who had ridden the deep slide to late 70's non-performance in US-market cars, the 4.5 liter 928 was a Godsend. Effortlessly fast, a much more stable and almost boringly easy to drive Porsche was a ray of hope. Porsche was at the end of their rope on the aircooled 911 cars, able to achieve US and Cali tailpipe numbers only with exotic exhaust afterburners and such. For those who enjoyed the 911's of the time as owners, head stud pullout, cam drive and engine temperature issues were high points. The factory had to jump through serious hoops to stretch the air-cooled engines, helped most by evolving electronic engine management coupled with more refined exhaust catalysts. The surviving 911 cars today have a lot of technology first introduced in the 928, such as the passive Weissach rear steering. The 911 has grown to the size of the 928, a size that was ridiculed at 928 introduction by the purists as bloated in the kindest terms.

Yet here we are. A question about what 928 engineering and features were borrowed from the other programs is now reversed: Look at all the features in the current 911 family that grew out of the 928 development.


Another thing we sometimes forget -- Porsche was assembling Mercedes E-class muscle cars under contract. Engineers moved back and forth between the companies as project demands ebbed and flowed. The success that Mercedes was having with their V8 muscle coupes was in-your-face right there on the Porsche assembly lines. Porsche invested in four major updates to the original 928 design over it's relatively long model life, so even with shrinking demand and skyrocketing costs, the factory continued to support it until they could no longer justify it in the face of looming new manufacturing standards that included OBD diagnostics. They decided instead to built the entry-level Boxster to pump up revenue and introduce another generation via a more mass-market priced car as the "transaxle" cars moved on to history.

Future928Owner

dr bob, I find this fascinating. As a "civilian" non-Porsche owner but a more than casual follower of the auto industry, I have always felt the 928 and to an extent the 924 were greatly underappreciated. In retrospect, it's easier to see the influence of these cars on current designs and how Porsche saw the need to transform its engineering for the future. e.g.: the 924 was widely derided as a "glorified Volkswagen". Then the initial backlash to the watercooled rear engine cars. Then the blockbuster Boxster. You can look at Porsche now and think they always dominated the world, but it felt in the 80's and 90's they were really going out on a limb. Which is another reason to appreciate the 928 and what it has begat.

dr bob

The 924 project evolved as a JV with Volkswagen and sister company Audi as a mass-market "sports car", similar in concept to the way the 914 was brought to different markets with only badge changes. It was a parts-bin car, transposed from front to rear drive by an extension on the back of the crank to a clutch slightly behind the driver. Otherwise it was skinwork. VW decided they didn't really have a slot in their model lineup for it after all, while Porsche had some invested engineering and some market forecasting. The 924 ultimately saved Porsche from the financial scrapheap, and went on to blossom into the popular 944 and 968 models that became vital to Porsche's survival. Project 928 started as the 914 was fading. VW wasn't that interested in carrying on 914 manufacturing for Porsche as the volume was way too low, especially as their projections had the water-cooled FWD cars taking over the old air-cooled model slots. The fact that Porsche was able to extend their air-cooled models for another 20+ years is pretty remarkable, especially considering the very low volume of 911 cars that were rolling out relative to their cousins at VW and Audi. Know also that there was a bit of Porsche family skulldugery going on behind the curtain, as relatives jostled for power in the "family" businesses. In bed with cousins, do you kiss or roll over?

Wisconsin Joe

Something to remember is the proposed safety rules and actual pollution/emissions rules back then.

As DrBob pointed out, the emissions rules pretty much strangled all the cars of the time, but particularly air cooled ones. Ever notice that the 911 was the only air cooled motor after the big rule changes went into effect in 75?

There were also a number of proposed safety rules that would likely have eliminated rear engined cars. Remember the Corvair & Ralph Nader? He had some valid points, particularly that the oversteer that's characteristic of rear engined cars is dangerous for 'less than competent' drivers. Those rules were never adopted, but if they had been, the 911 would have been done.

Porsche didn't want to end production of the 911. It was their signature car. But the US was the biggest market and they couldn't afford to lose that.

As noted, the 924 (and later 944 & 968) were originally a design project that Porsche did for VW, but when VW decided that the car didn't fit their lineup, Porsche obtained the rights.

As time went by, they figured out how to make the air cooled motors compliant and have a reasonable amount of power. The safety rules disappeared, and the 911 was tamed to a certain extent.

The purists never accepted the transaxle cars as 'real' Porsches, despite the fact that they both came entirely from the Porsche design teams. And that the 911 (and 356 & Speedster before it) is just a souped up Beetle.

The factory really stopped putting serious R&D into them by 90, and decided to go with the Boxter, in part due to parts commonality. They also streamlined the manufacturing process.
They needed to do those things to stay afloat.

19psi

1.5X the cost of a Corvette would mean my '82 928 would have only been $33K (closer to the cost of a 911). The original price of my '82 would have bought 2 Corvettes with enough extra to throw in a new Chevette for those rainy days. '78 vs '78 would have bought 2 Corvettes and a Trans Am with some change left over.
I did own a C3 generation for 12 years so I'm no stranger to them, also no fan boy of them either as I feel the engineering and build quality is that of a kit car built by drunken hillbillies. That said, I don't believe there was ever a 500 lb difference between a 928 and Corvette. '78 vs '78, there was about a 300lb advantage to the 928 but it didn't take long for Porsche to pork up. My '82 928 is slightly heavier than a '82 Corvette, and the C4 generation trimmed down even more.
Of course Porsche always had the HP advantage but unfortunately it was only 20 to 30 hp in the US market.

I don't know how Porsche felt the 928 could replace the 911 when there was a sticker shock price tag difference. Would it have been possible for them to keep it within a few thousand of a 911? The additional $8K was a huge amount of money in '78 and the spread grew more and more each year.
1986:
944 $23K
Corvette $27K
911 $32K
928 $53K

dr bob

... And that's why the 911 is still in production and the 928 is not. Those eary cars wre in the low $30k range as stated. Further, Porsche carefiully vetted the early purchasers to make sure the cars went to the "right" buyers. It was always price-exclusive, intentianaly in those earliest years but not so beneficial as the years went by. As you point out, the mid-80's cars stickered in the 50's, and the sticker on my '89, just a few years later, was almost 30k higher. I bought a new '85 911 C, and never even looked at the 928 in the showroom -- sticker shock plus! It just wasn't a car I was interested in. My 928 became attractive only after the original owner ate almost $60k just in depreciation in less than 20k miles and about 9 years. He did manage to negotiate a $10k end-of-summer 'discount' at about the time the stock maket was seeing a pretty significant "adjustment". The car ate a lot of his wallet, and he was pretty happy to get out. Sales numbers were falling off with each new year, and the exclusive pricing didn't help as the last years went on.

Drop by your local dealer and see how the new 911 cars are priced these days. Make a build sheet and seee how much of your cash stash will be sacrificed. These are checkbook cars these days. The original market for 911's as performance enthusiast cars has become an image market IMO. Great car to be seen in, but relatively few see more than boulevard use. Weekend 'new' 911 racers? Very few any more. 928 Racers? A handfull maybe.

928FIXER

""These are checkbook cars these days."" This is so true,as is the steep depreciation curve.My 86 stickered for twice of what my 79 was.Again,got to love the first owner,as 8 years later,the 86S is just a 13K used car!

khalloudy

One of the main reasons the price skyrocketed on the 928 past its midlife is the Mark vs USD exchange rate change. It was always an expensive car to start with, but the drop in the USD value made is much more expensive and that hit all German import prices overall... a key driver for the the Germans opening up factories for their mainstream models this side of the Atlantic.

WALTSTAR

That the 928 was the first fully original
Porsche ever designed?
All previous models were based upon VW platforms....
I would say the 928 owners are the true Porsche purists.?..