CanyonBlaster

315 hp, quattro, four "oh ****" handles, and ya gotta love the 968/993 type mirrors too.........throw some studded snows on it and go run amuck around the ski towns......fun

http://www.fantasycars.com/sedans/audi/audi_rs24.jpg

Robby

Blitz- I've heard of some of the S4's not getting the times indicative of the HP they're supposed to be putting down... But, the original one I saw in EC was only chipped (Neuspeed chips) & it rana 13.0- that's impressive- I think the prob is two-fold- first, the Audi Quattro is a BITCH to launch effectively- a modded one will be faster on WET ground than on dry- the reason is b/c the wheels will not spin- if so, only for an instant- the wet allows them to lose just enough traction to spin the tires slightly & avoid bogging the engine- I first read about this concept in SCC where they tested 2-FWD, 2-RWD, & 2AWD cars- the 2 AWD's were a modded Audi A4 & a 400HP modded AWD Talon. BOTH cars were faster off the line on wet ground... Anyway, the second, & possibly bigger reason, is the state of tune of the individual car- when installling larger turbos, etc, the A:F ratio has to be just right to optimize power & I'm not sure how easy that really is to accomplish on that car- I just don't know much about it, BUT, I DO know of a guy who is famous for Bimer tuning (as told to me by my mechanic) who burns chips & will NOT sell chips for a 951 PERIOD unless the car is in HIS shop on HIS dyno- he says the 951 is the most inconsistent car for chips that exists- I'm not sure about this, but it would explain some variances b/t similarly modded cars....

Anyway, as several have stated, I don't think you can go wrong w/either car- the Audi is REALLY NICE, but, if you can find a 951 in excllent condition, then, IT will be a nice car too- just completly different cars really....

BTW- DANNO- do you have any idea what a stock S4 (&/or chipped S4) can run at Willow Springs? What about a stock E36M3? I also mean by a professional driver- basically, what is the limit of the car, as the Turbo S was 1:41- I'd like to know how the later BMW's & Audi's compare....

Danno

"do you have any idea what a stock S4 (&/or chipped S4) can run at Willow Springs? What about a stock E36M3? I also mean by a professional driver- basically, what is the limit of the car"

Here's times at Willow Springs, mods & upgrades unknown:

BMW E36 M3
1:26.0 - Gil Caravantes ('97 3.2L)
1:26.9 - James Sofranas
1:29.9 - Ross & McGinn
1:34.1 - Jon Holder
1:37.5 - Fred Gil
1:37.5 - Guagenti
1:39.0 - Navid Kahangi (E46)

BMW E30 M3
1:36.3 - Mainini, Scott & Iwaniw
1:37.7 - Hull & Arnold
1:39.7 - William Koneval
1:46.1 - Darren Keene

Audi A4/S4
1:36.7 - Babcock & Babcock
1:46.1 - Jerry Buza (A4)

Porsche 944NA
1:29.9 - Mitch Stahl
1:35.6 - Neil Wright

Porsche 944 Turbo
1:27.6 - Wayne Mello (although I think Rick White was driving for this lap)
1:34.7 - John ****
1:37.6 - Chris Houdre
1:38.5 - Danno (me)

Danno

Speaking of 951s on racetracks, here's how you get around Thunderhill quickly:




As far as I can tell, Rick White's got the fastest times in a 951 on any track. Pictures and times above from Doug Hayashi's NSX-Files Stories, specifically the OTC-2003 day at Thunderhill.

jimbo1111

Had a run in this morning with a 344 hp 2004 S4 on the highway. To make a long story short. We ran from 70mph. I pulled about 18 lengths on him up to 140. He was in such disbelief that I repeated the run 2 more times with the same outcome. granted my car isn't stock.

Steve Lavigne

Actually, that's just a little ole' slightly modified 924S.

Mledbetter

So, 70-140 runs with a car that runs mid to upper 13's stock in the 1/4 and you put 18 lengths on him?

So, you must run... 9's in the quarter?

Or he wasn't racing...

-Matt

Robby

Yes, the new S4's are running right at 13.5's. The TTV6 S4's were running high 12's to LOW 13's w/simple chips & ~310HP (but ~370TQ)- they're ~200lbs lighter though- I think Audi's fu**ing up w/the new ones- the RS cars really suck- they're not getting anywhere w/their new stuff- they need to get back to what they WERE doing w/their 4 & 6cyl tuning programs & do SOMETHING about their nose heavy problems (& ALL OVER weight problems as well) or they're going to get stomped in the market- I don't care if you're pushinng 450HP if your car weighs >2 TONS! HELL, for YEARS I was hearing about what a BAD-*** the new M5 was going to be when it came out- kept hearing "400HP, 400HP....!" & was thinking, "DAMN- the 993TT S runs an 11.9 - 12.1 & IT has barely >400HP- this new M5 should be BAD!" BUT, of COURSE, they KILL it's potential by weighing it in at >4200lbs(!). It's like some of those crazy-heavy Mercedes- granted, its STILL FAST, but, a FULL second SLOWER than a STANDARD 993TT/996TT, much less the 993TT S- BTW- 1 FULL second at those speeds (a 993 TT S runs CLOSE to 120mph @ 1/4) is a LOT!!! 60mph = 88ft/sec, so, 120mph = 176ft/sec. So, IF the 993TT S stayed on the throttel when it crossed the line UNTIL the M5 came across, by the time the M5 DOES cross, just >1 FULL second later, it would have traveled another ~200ft- (1.1 x ~180 = 198 AND, you have to rememember, that it WILL have picked up at least several more mph in that last seecond too, so....)- in any event, the 993TT S would have gotten out in front by ~200ft(!)- well over half a FOOTBALL FIELD(!)... Anyway ,what all have you done to your 951? IF indeed you pulled him that fast & he really is supposed to have 344HP, I expect his car wasn't running the way it was supposed to- that does happen & CAN w/ANY car- OR, your car is FU**ING FAST...


ALSO- Danno- I replied to this thread last night after you posted the WS times, BUT, it didn't come up evidently... Those S4's & M3's (E36's included) are pretty FU**ING fast- just so everyone here knows- I KNOW you've run in the 1:36's, so your 1:38.x run wasn't as good as you've done- what's holding you back? I thought you were putting out more power now- actually, I thought you were constantly making STOCK NEW 944 TURBO S ran 1:41 back in the day w/pro driver- the 968 CS (w/M030 17" package, etc) ran 1:43.3 w/pro, etc- '89 911 Turbo ran 1:43, STOCK REGULAR 951 ran 1:45 - 1:46- Talon TT was in the 1:46-1:47 bracket- same w/Jetta Vr6 & SVT Contour- RX7TT ran a 1:41.x, 300ZXTT ran a 1:43.x, 3000GTVR4 was in the high 1:43's, C4 Vette was ~1:40.x & SUPRATT was 1.39 flat(!). I would LOVE to know what a mildly tuned Supra TT (w/mild susp & some 600HP) would run... BTW- STOCK Viper GTSR ran just under 1:35, just to let everyone know.... Those are about all the times I know for thjat track, BUT, I ALSO NOTICED THAT ALL BUT ONE E30M3 BEAT the Turbo S by ~2full seconds- that's pretty impressive & ALL the E36M3's blew the stock Turbo S away- BTW- you said the fastest 951 was Rick White- what does he run at WS? Cervelli HAD the record @ 1:23.x IIRC- I KNOW he was sub 1:25 for SURE- I thought he still had the record(?).... AND- I didn't know you could get a 951 up on two wheels that high- does that happen when they get modded like that often, or, wasa he just ABOUT to roll it? It LOOKS like he was, actually- I've seen pics of old 16v GTi's up on two wheels about like that- hte rear's get a lot higher than the fronts, but, they are up pretty good-the rear inside ALWAYS gets up off the ground in GTi's though, as well as Corrado's, but, to a lesser extent... Anyway, interesting stuff....

Danno

"Actually, that's just a little ole' slightly modified 924S. "

I think Rick was the ringer co-driver using Wayne's car. He bought it during a weak moment when smoking the Go Fast Crack Pipe. Although Rick's darn fast in the 924S, got something like 1:14 on the old Streets of Willow course without the Bowl vs. my 1:21 in the 951.

Also on the lap-time comparisons above, the tires makes a HUGE difference and we don't know what tires each of those guys were running. Between my BF-Hardrock street tires with a treadwear rating of 340, there's an 8-second/lap gain to be had in going to Yokohama A032Rs. Another second can be had with Kumho Victoracers. Yet another second can be had with Hoosiers. With pure Michelin slicks like Wayne's using, there's another second or two. So there's easily a 10-second spread in tires alone.

It was glorious seeing Wayne beat up on the Vipers at Willow Springs in that car: NSX-files: Chapter 77 - TCRA at Willow

Robby

Danno-

How in the HELL is he running those times in a 924S? Has he turbo charged it or something? I know power isn't everything, BUT, you had told me awhile back, that WS was a "power track." I know Cervelli ran in the 1:23's OR 1:24's, which is STILL ~3sec faster than Rick/Wayne's(?) time above, BUT, that's closing the gap pretty well, considering, ESPECIALLY it being a power track. Was Cervelli running slicks when he made his best runs there? What about Rick in the sbove, pics you posted- is THAT how he got the wheels up in the air? Also, are A032R's streetable tires? I've heard of them, but I don't think I've ever looked at them on Tire Rack or anything... Also, what spring rates are YOU running when drving WS AND about how much HP/TQ do you think you're making? IF these aren't secretive specs? Also, do you have ANY idea what kind of HP/TQ cervelli was making in his sub 1:25 runs? I would LOVE to know what kind of times a 600+ HP/TQ Milledge 968/951 w/mild track susp mods OR a Gomes engine OR even better, an 1100HP Norwood Doom II w/susp mods... Damn, there are so many ways you could configure a car, the variables are endless I guess- the original 405HP GTP Le Man's 944 that weighed 2040lbs was probably one of the fastest ones of all, w/slicks (which I assume it ALWAYS ran) for a track run... Anyway....

Thanks,

jimbo1111

Posted by Matt:

So, 70-140 runs with a car that runs mid to upper 13's stock in the 1/4 and you put 18 lengths on him?

So, you must run... 9's in the quarter?

Or he wasn't racing...

If you call 3 runs not racing than fine. I don't think a driver could mess up 3 times. I am just stating the facts. S4 are not all that fast. In fact I think a mildly modified 951 Chip's mbc and exhaust would have given him a dam good run if not beat him. He was becoming a spec in my mirror.

3 Turbos

jimbo1111 Posted by Matt:

So, 70-140 runs with a car that runs mid to upper 13's stock in the 1/4 and you put 18 lengths on him?

So, you must run... 9's in the quarter?

Or he wasn't racing...

If you call 3 runs not racing than fine. I don't think a driver could mess up 3 times. I am just stating the facts. S4 are not all that fast. In fact I think a mildly modified 951 Chip's mbc and exhaust would have given him a dam good run if not beat him. He was becoming a spec in my mirror.

___________________________________________________________

jimbo1111,

You have to remember that the 2004 S4 may not been broken in yet and most likely is stock and does not have turbos for easy horsepower gains like the S4's with turbo's. That being said, is your 951 stock? I'm gonna guess not.

I'm not familiar with the non turbo S4's and have never driven one. I'm only familiar with the V6 turbo S4's.

So I would say of the "old turbo S4's" and 951's from a rolling start, because neither one is a drag racer - I think they would be close, but;

*) stock 951 against stock S4 = IMHO edge goes to S4
*) chipped 951 against chipped S4 = IMHO edge goes to S4
*) chipped, larger turbo 951 against same mod to S4 = IMHO edge goes to S4
*) race it in damp weather = IMHO edge goes to S4
*) track suspension on both, depending if track is tight or not or if race is an endurance which means tire changes - it would be only seconds between them.
*) racing in the rain = IMHO edge goes to S4
*) race prepared cars like the German Touring car series with th like of Micheal Galati (sp) etc = the edge DID go to the S4

Bottom line equal mods to "different cars" they would be close.

Turn the tables around and have a stock 951 run a modified S4 - I think the S4 would be 18 car lenghts ahead.

But even then if it were me and maybe others racing your 951 - what if I only wanted to run 70 to 120 but you wanted to run 70 to 140 - that could be why you were so far ahead - I might have felt anything over 120 was not safe for my driving record.

On my S4 my top speed limiters are gone - but with the limiters in place, limit was at 148mph - I do not know what the limiters are on the "new" S4

I'm not say the 951 is not a fast car or isn't a nice car - heck I have both. My 951 is lightly modified and my S4 is less modified and they are both fairly close - maybe my 951 is faster in certain areas and might be faster than my S4 up to 150 which is the top end on my 951 - so in my case after 150, my S4 would kick butt.

All in all, I'm not saying you didn't beat the S4 by that many car lenghts, but not only are you comparing apples to oranges, but if yours is modified and the S4 is not, your comparisons are totaly meaning less with the exception just to show that they are different cars in almost every respect.

The S4 for being a heavy awd drive 4 door sedan can for the most part be quick and fun to drive as a 951 sports car.

Robby

There are a lot of variances b/t production cars- especially b/t V8's- that was the reason ford didn't make a 00 Cobra- they had been selling them as 320HP cars & found that many were short by ~60HP- they ended up refunding some $ for those who wanted dif cars altogether- some people took small rebates & still others exchanged their's for Mustangs that actually had full HP... Miata's were another similar one- they went up to 140HP for their 10th anniverssary- that was ~20HP more & the car only added ~100lbs, BUT, it ALSO got a close ratio 6-sp to help accel along w/susp & wheel/tire improvements- the car didn't do any better really- they found it was low on HP.... A friend had 3 VR6 Corrados & a VR6 Jetta- not at the same time, but.... The Corrados were 2 late '93's & 1 '94- meaning they had the newer interior (as opposed to 92's) & were distributorless as well as slight mods eleswhere.... The Jetta had 5 fewer HP @ 4 fewer TQ bone stock & was ~50lb heavier- the Jetta had a taller FD- 3.38 vs 3.65 so the overall ratios were taller, thereby slowing it a tiny bit- anyway, the cars all had the same mods- lot's of susp mods & chips, cone filter & bored TB- the Jettas had all of this except the TB- the Jetta started w/less HP, had more weight, taller gearing, & one less mod & it would beat all 3 of the Corrados w/out question.... We had it up to ALMOST 150 one night, ~149- we beat a 4.9L Mustang on hte freeway one night & also beat a 4.6L Mustang from a standing drag- it had us through 1st, but, by the time we grabbed 3rd, we were in front & by 100, we had close to 5 car lengths on him(!). The point- the Jetta was just strong- it had to be one of the fastest '95 Jetta VR6's off the showroom floor.... Sometimes it just happens- I'm not sure why, but, it seems that V8's have more probs keeping their claimed power.... Not sure, but I THINK this must have something to do w/the Audi's- a V8 S4 runs ~13.5 & that has been VERY consistent in hte magazines so far- a 951 would need more than just chips to be able to BEAT a 13.5 for sure- to beat a car that could runa 13.5 by ~18 car lengths b/t 70 & 140 would take a 951 that could at least run mid 12's- there aren't many that can do that- to do that, you need close to 400HP in a 951- at LEAST 375 or so w/TQ to match. IF you're car is pushing this, then great, but, if not, I REALLY think the Audi wasn't performing as it should be- that would not surprise me either since I hear people, ALL THE TIME, talk about how this car "flies" or that car "will MOVE!" etc... I mean, anyone w/a car that will break into the 16's thinks it's fast as fu**! I've heard people say that stock late '80's Acura Legends would "FLY!"- the original Legend COUPE 5-sp would not crack a sub 16.0 on it's BEST DAY, MUCH LESS a regular sedan Legend! Also, anything from Sciroccos to Civics to Accords to Cadillacs to SENTRAS will "FLY!" Hell, anything that will break 100mph must be "FAST!" it's silly really, so, if you think about it, one of these guy's get's into a V8 S4 that is in horrible tune & it feels like a rocket to them, b/c they don;t KNOW any better & it runs mid 15's(!?)

Anyway, make no mistake about it, a V8 S4 that is putting out full power is pretty damn fast- a 13.5 will beat a stock Turbo S by .7 sec- sure, you can chip a Turbo S & get CLOSE, but still- a chipped S4TT on the other hand, will flat out destroy a chipped 951 w/nothing else, but again, assuming it is in good tune- the S4TT's don't put out near the HP (even chipped, they're only ~310) but, they get the TQ to ~370) & THAT is what get's the axles turning & they are ~200lbs lighter, etc- I love Audis, but I'm not too big on hte new V8's.... I LOVE the S4TT's though- to each his own....



STEVE- your guestimates seem to be right on w/the S4TT- the stock S4TT usually ran the 1/4 b/t 14.0 & 14.2 in all the mags I've seen- the 951 was always 14.4-14.6- the Turbo S was ALWAYS 14.2, EXCEPT for Porshe manufacturers data (which is usually spot-on, but NOT here) was 13.5 & THAT HAD to be a prototype that was in excllent tune WITH the 3.78FD. NOW- C&D is the ONLY one that tested a Turbo S that broke below a 14.2- it ran a 13.9 b/c the dealer that was going to loan the Turbo S to them to test, screwed up or something & they had to locate another at the last minute- they found one througha dealer, BUT, it was a specially ordered one wthe3.78 FD (I THINK it was 3.78- it was a good bit shorter than stock 3.38 anyway)- is THAT the FD YOU HAVE, since you say you're limited to <150? The math I get on that is mid 140's, so that must be about right.... Anyway, what is the fastest you've gotten your S4? Also the 951? I'd love to know what some of the S4's can do top speed w/out reve limiter...what type of chips do you have? Any other S4 mods? 951 mods? Sounds like you have the best of both worlds.....

lart951

by 3 turbos

3 turbos, could you list the mods on your 951 please.

3 Turbos

Robby,

STEVE- your guestimates seem to be right on w/the S4TT- the stock S4TT usually ran the 1/4 b/t 14.0 & 14.2 in all the mags I've seen- the 951 was always 14.4-14.6- the Turbo S was ALWAYS 14.2, EXCEPT for Porshe manufacturers data (which is usually spot-on, but NOT here) was 13.5 & THAT HAD to be a prototype that was in excllent tune WITH the 3.78FD. NOW- C&D is the ONLY one that tested a Turbo S that broke below a 14.2- it ran a 13.9 b/c the dealer that was going to loan the Turbo S to them to test, screwed up or something & they had to locate another at the last minute- they found one througha dealer, BUT, it was a specially ordered one wthe3.78 FD (I THINK it was 3.78- it was a good bit shorter than stock 3.38 anyway)- is THAT the FD YOU HAVE, since you say you're limited to <150? The math I get on that is mid 140's, so that must be about right.... Anyway, what is the fastest you've gotten your S4? Also the 951? I'd love to know what some of the S4's can do top speed w/out reve limiter...what type of chips do you have? Any other S4 mods? 951 mods? Sounds like you have the best of both worlds.....

My 951 has a top end of about 154mph at about 6850-7000rpm - I've been only able to hit 150-151 at our local track before the 1st turn with maybe 500-600rpm left - that is the fastest I have been in my 951 because I don't believe in doing that kind speed on the street.

My S4 has a top end of 168 to 172 proven by many others with the same mods I have - my S4 is a "tiptronic" - I've only had that up to 145 at the same local track before the 1st turn, so slightly slower, but I wasn't trying to real hard epecially with 3 other students in the car with me.

I guess you could try and do those speeds on a nice country road at 2 am or something like that where you wouldn't endanger anyone else, but I don't trust the "deer" here - I've not only hit one before, lucky for me a glancing blow - otherwise, I would probably be dead. They weight alot and can do some real damage - it is hard to avoid them doing 150+ mph - I don't care how good a driver you think you are - when a "deer" suddenly appears before your eyes at 150, your pretty much a goner. unless someone above you likes you alot.

I'm lucky to have both; 1987 951 owned since new - 2000 S4 owned since new.