Stifler

Where can I get sleaving "kits" and related products like pistons etc. in USA or Europe for engine rebuilds, does anyone have any tips or adresses. Need 3.1 or 3.2L for 968 block. Can get the macining of block done to spec but have to do the sleaveing process localy. What are the best methode to use when sleaving big fours for a turbo-hybrid project. Thanks!

Bengt Sweden

Me too.
106-108mm pistons plus sleeves. Made for 968 head and turbo.
Anyone here tried?

BB

David Floyd

Not sure about kits.

pistons and rings: www.jepistons.com

sleeves: www.lasleeve.com

Can be made to your specs

BC

LA Sleeve, and a guy there names Dave.

He said that sleeves can be gotten for 80-100 dollars, depending on what you wanted. Just call him and ask him about what your plans are. He suggests a shop up in LA, and I spoke to them. Very knowledgable to say the least.

It seems that this shop has done quite a few sleeved 944 blocks for the local PCA, with no bad issues.


For the pistons, JE has quite a few options. Two different metals, with different expansion rates for whatever your purpose.

m42racer

Also, ask Travis on this board for info. He can supply you with liners from another manufacturer which are considered the best. I believe there are liners and Pistons in the works with him in the sizes you ask for and even some bigger. He can also tell help you on the install and machining. BTW, he now offers a Deck Plate conversion for these same blocks.

Be careful with the Pistons suggested in these sizes. They have been known to fail with Pin boss failures.

BC

In SoCal, we have LA Sleeve, Darton, and possibly "Eagle", though the quality that darton and LA Sleeve show often make people just stop looking and go with either.

What "manufacturer" would you be talking about M42? AEBS? AEBS is a company that "Manufactures" T-sleeves for the Honda/Tunder crowd. You know, the guys that take 1.8L engines and boost them to 40lbs? www.aebsracing.com


M42 - With ALL DUE respect to your informational position here on these boards, what info did you give with that post? Talk to Travis. I am sure the Performance Developments would do a wonderous Job at the machining, as you have personally ALWAYS stated how exceptional PD is at the machining needed for these processes.

How much would we be charged for these "manufacturer's" sleeves, and the process that would be done by PD? Well, if its costs 1000 dollars to get a deck plate onto ONE cylinder bank, I am AFRAID to ask about what it would be to sleeve a block with darton or LA sleeves.

This is not rocket science people. These are engines. Aluminum ones. I for one absolutley support "trade secrets" and making sure that the work one does and the process used stays private if it has to do with income. But this is the internet. Remember that. I talked to a guy at valley engine and machining. He was suggested by LA Sleeve. I will probably be getting some referrals from valley to go talk to some of thier customers who are supposed to be very happy ones - in the PCA in SoCal. None of this has been mentioned here. Because ALOT never makes it to the internet. In fact, I'd say MOST of it doesn't. Solid, intelligent, well run shops just haven't had to time to design and host a website. They are too busy building engines for customers that come back for more, and always refer.
In fact, I like the fact that PD doesn't have alot of stuff on thier website. That says to me that its possible that they have been too busy actually building quality products for people.


M42 - Now on your issue with JE - I request proof, if you don't mind. Not "This guy I knew said that his friend had a buddy that broke a pin boss on his JE pistons". Well that says NOTHING except that MAYBE that guy had a 15:1 fuel ratio and was too stupid to figure it out. JE pistons are aluminum, and work well for 98% of the people that use them. Maybe he had the clearence wrong on the floating pin...Maybe...whatever.


I'm done I guess. I'm am just so FREAKING tired of people on the 951 boards AS WELL AS the 928 boards who INSIST on making the whole upgrade process into some voodoo science when all you need is some basic intelligence and money to do whatever you want with your engine. An engine is an engine. Basic physics, thermo-dynamics, and metalurgy will work if its a Flat head ford, or a Variable intake, variable cam, super-duper aluminum-silicone exotic.

Sam Lin

Thanks for saying it Brendan, I've felt the same for a long time.

Sam

BC

We are trying to cut through alot of this voodoo crap over on the 928 list, but it is an ongoing battle to say the least.

My mechanic, who I go to when I get in too deep, services Ferarris, Porsche, Lambos, Bentleys, R/R, etc. He's the best around, and was just Voted Rookie of the Year for SOme section of the SCCA.

The man has NO COMPUTER.

Sam Lin

That's the way it is with most of the most skilled people I know, they don't have a computer, if they do, they barely know how to use it for e-mail, and quite frankly, they don't give a sh** about the internet - they get a hell of a lot of word of mouth business because they provide the best service and do the best work they can.

Sam

m42racer

In answer to some of your comments, yes I do promote PD as much as I can. Reason, very simple. I went to them some time ago and asked if they would develop some new parts for the 951 engine. I felt we had very little to choose from. The same old parts were sold year after year, alot of them over sold I might add. They agreed, and to date, probably have developed more in the last 6 months than most other have in the last 6 years. I have not paid a $ towards this developemnt. I am buying an engine with all these parts in them, but I am not obligated to apy towards the cost of development. That is why I do my best to promote them.

As for the cost of the Deck Plate. Tell me how much this should cost? I don't see any others offering such things. I have seen others welding and machining and filling with filler. I would guess, that you are not involved in running one of these types of businesses. I am not either, but I can see that it is not easy to run one in SCal, and do work properly and at a lower cost.

As for the other sleeves I mentioned. The company PD uses for Sleeves is Darton for DI sleeves, and the other company is in Spain who make their alloy sleevs for the race engines. It is not my place to tell who their vendor supplier are. I do know that the sleeves they have made are not available to others. I am suer Darton and others make a standard replacement sleeve, but sizes, design etc all can be changed.

Your comment about the cost of installing them, well thats their choice I suppose. Remember, ther is production machining and there is precision machining. Take your pick. The costs are very different I suspect. Do you know the difference? I am not sure with a comment like that. If cost is the determining factor, what logic could I put forward that would make any difference.

As for JE Pistons cracking around the Pin Boss, and even failing completely. In all due respect sir, this is a well known fact with alot of high end race engine builders. I used to own and run a Midget race car until 6 months ago. I was always having to replace the Pistons. We would get 1 or hopefully 2 race weekends and have to repalce as the Pin Bosses cracked. The same was for the BMW engine I used in SCCA. I have spoken to many engine builders of note who have expressed the same problem. I saw first hand 2 complete engine failures in Porsche 993 RSR's where the Pistons failed. I make this comment from first hand experience, not from some slanted view point. I ahve spent many Thousands of $ with JE through different engine builders. There is a reason why Mahle, Cosworth, Omega, Accuralite to name a few, sell high quality Pistons to so many high end race engine builders.

As for the voodoo comment. Your right it is not voodoo. It plain old attention to detail, knowing what is right, measuring, machining and holding to close tolerences, and spending the required time to do everything as close to perfect as possible. A saying I have heard so many times lately, there are some that see it wrong and fix it, and there are those that do not see it at all. I am not suggesting you are either, but I do think you under estimate the work involved in performing this sort of work at the level that PD and others who produce race engines of quality do.

From re reading your post, you "appear" to make some very broad statements. Thats your right and opinions. I do not agree with them, but I do agree that you definity have the right to say them.

Yes they are very lacking in their webb site. This is another reason I bang this drum. You are correct in your view about these sorts of companies not resorting to "selling" their work. I can tell you they do not have to. Their work speaks for itself.

One last comment. Your statement about its only an engine. I really do not know how to answer that. Maybe all of those who said that just before it blew up and then wondered why. Its not hard to read between your lines and see what you consider easy. Another saying I have heard many times lately sums up this quite well. This is told to me many times by someone who has built F1 engines that have won not only races but 2 world championships. "Nothing can humble a man more than an engine or an angry wife".

Are you married?

Steve Lavigne

Golden Eagle specifically mentions a 944 sleeving application on their website:

http://www.goldeneaglemfg.com/sleeving.html

Chris White

Back to the original question….
If you just want the parts assembled in a kit form (sleeves, pistons/pins and rings) I can help you out.
I use Darton sleeves – the key here is that you can get sleeves from Darton as ‘blanks’ which need a number of machining steps done to work or you can spec out the finished product and have Datron machine the blank to your spec. The machining is a bit of a pain in the butt to do and Datron charges about $50 per sleeve to do it so I would suggest that you have them do it.
I use JE pistons (regardless of previous comments) and have had good results. You can spend more and possible even get better…but in my experience most engine failures are either operator error or incorrect engine management.
JE will only make pistons as per your request – if you ask for the wrong thing you will get the wrong thing. JE will also respect the work put into design by their clients – so if you ask for a 3.1liter 16 valve turbo (8:1 CR) piston they will not supply them without your specs (even thought they have made a bunch of these before) and I will give them credit for this.
The real key to getting the job done right is the right machine shop to do the rest of the work. When I put together my sleeved blocks the shop I use lets me come in on Saturdays and do the set up and boring machine work myself (I was looking at an $18,900 machine the other day….tempting!).
If you really want a package put together of just the parts let me know and I will see what I can do (email off line).

Chris White www.944enhancement.com sorry – I will update the site soon!

PS – as far as the deck plate – you guys are barking up the wrong tree….if you are that concerned you had better start with a 3.0 block – and if you deck plate that you are trimming down the heat transfer area quite a bit!!

BC

I agree Chris.
...JE, and the people I have spoken to there (by phone) have been very very helpfull. By making these things to your own measurements, mainly pin placement, who, really, is responsible for failures?

BoostGuy951

Chris you have a PM.

m42racer

The great privilage we have with this forum is the ability to voice our opinions. This forum is a great source for information and to read others opinions. I have stated mine, and take them for what they are worth. It doesn't bother me that you disagree. Thats what these forums are for. In this business, nothing raises more questions and creates more cynics than some one voicing an opinion about engine performance/upgrades.

We all have our choices. We can agree, we can disagree. But I cannot seem to understand why some think that if some one charges more for something, that those companies are overcharging, but when the same is offered for less, that we never think we are getting less.

In an earlier post, a comment was made about the cost of the PD Deck plate, and therefore/maybe the cost to Install Liners would be similar. How do you connect those dots? You get what you pay for in this world. as a very simple explanation maybe, the block and Deck Plate insert are machined on a CNC mill at PD. I do know that in any CNC shop, this time is very expensive. I know whne we contract out certain CNC work, we pay around $ 160- $275 per hour depending on the setup time and how many parts are made.

As for the Heat transfer comment. This is a genuine question. As I am about to have this done, I would like to hear what you mean Chris White. I am not sure I understand your concerns. What I see, is the Liners are connected to the block rails, the Gasket remains flat, the Head stays rigid to the Block rails which helps the fastening head bolt problem, the block pressure is slightly higher helping to purge out the hot spots, and the overal package is stiffer. As for Heat transfer, how does the Deck Plate change this. Does not the water still go thro the H/G from the back of the block thro the Head toward the front and out to the radiator. What changes. I am interested in your view here.

What I like about the way they are doing it, is there is no welding. The Heat treat of the block is not affected. The Plate is machined exactly to fit the block. I saw them fit one. After it was fitted, the block was heated to normal operating temps, had a Honing plate fitted and torqued and pressure checked. There was no leaks. What made me go this way was the post and pics on the 928 board. What I saw there was scary to me. But if it works then great. I would guess a professional race engine builder would not offer this level of work, but rather do things in a more engineered fashion. This is possibly why it costs $ 1000.00.