MAF conversion
09-18-2019, 11:22 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Although I think Vitesse Racing's for one could support that but you'd still being running a 30 year old DME/KLR and wiring harness so there is that. What is you are trying to do???
09-19-2019, 02:58 AM
#17
Three Wheelin'
I mean, if you're worried about resolution maybe the 8-bit ADC in the ancient DME should be your main worry.
You're seriously overthinking this, and there is no shortcut/cheap path to a MAF unless you're willing to put in the effort to do some assembly programming. The price Rogue/LR and Vitesse ask for their product is completely fair and they have taken out all the legwork, that's what you're paying for, not the MAF itself.
You're seriously overthinking this, and there is no shortcut/cheap path to a MAF unless you're willing to put in the effort to do some assembly programming. The price Rogue/LR and Vitesse ask for their product is completely fair and they have taken out all the legwork, that's what you're paying for, not the MAF itself.
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Dwizle (09-27-2019)
09-19-2019, 03:07 AM
#18
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2010
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I could never get the idle to stay constant with an MAF, I don't think I was the only one, but no one ever really wants to talk about a bad investment when they tried to upgrade their car. Perhaps things have changed and the tuning had improved. Porsche seemed to have used them on several racecars making way more than 400hp.
09-19-2019, 12:13 PM
#19
Banned
Thread Starter
I mean, if you're worried about resolution maybe the 8-bit ADC in the ancient DME should be your main worry.
You're seriously overthinking this, and there is no shortcut/cheap path to a MAF unless you're willing to put in the effort to do some assembly programming. The price Rogue/LR and Vitesse ask for their product is completely fair and they have taken out all the legwork, that's what you're paying for, not the MAF itself.
You're seriously overthinking this, and there is no shortcut/cheap path to a MAF unless you're willing to put in the effort to do some assembly programming. The price Rogue/LR and Vitesse ask for their product is completely fair and they have taken out all the legwork, that's what you're paying for, not the MAF itself.
Coincidentally I just took a look at the LR Rogue product and it looks almost identical to the VR system. Wondering if the developer is the same.
09-19-2019, 01:08 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
That would be a no. Vitesse (John and TT) pioneered the approach, using a Chipboard and their own code, etc. maybe 2 decades ago. Up till that point, MAF's were ill-tempered on these cars because they were paired with the stock DME hardware and code, but with chips or fuel controllers that tried to take the MAF curve and jam it into an AFM system. Anyone remember Huntley Racing and the ARC2?
(Side note, Huntley sold $400 chips to go with his MAF before running off to Costa Rica in the middle of the night. I once did a hex dump of Huntley's chip and found copyright notices from another well-known chip seller....).The Vitesse system was a true game-changer and John's been constantly refining that system ever since. Rogue Tuning/Josh introduced a system maybe a decade later that appeared to be very similar, as you say. The Vitesse system doesn't need to be modified to have a 28-pin EPROM socket, however, for somewhat ironic reasons I believe. The Rogue system became popular when Josh was around. People thought of it as less expensive than the original VR system, and Josh was very active on the boards and would help with code/map changes and such when people experienced problems, and would frequently post info about his latest experiments, etc.. I don't think LR has the wherewithal to help in the same way that Josh did, so these days that system is lacking a key part of what made it popular I'd say. Having seem both system in action on many cars, I've always felt the Vitesse system was better sorted out of the box (just one man's opinion), but there was a time when saying that out loud on this board would start a flame war. So anyway, no, not the same developer.
09-19-2019, 02:07 PM
#21
Banned
Thread Starter
That would be a no. Vitesse (John and TT) pioneered the approach, using a Chipboard and their own code, etc. maybe 2 decades ago. Up till that point, MAF's were ill-tempered on these cars because they were paired with the stock DME hardware and code, but with chips or fuel controllers that tried to take the MAF curve and jam it into an AFM system. Anyone remember Huntley Racing and the ARC2? (Side note, Huntley sold $400 chips to go with his MAF before running off to Costa Rica in the middle of the night. I once did a hex dump of Huntley's chip and found copyright notices from another well-known chip seller....).
The Vitesse system was a true game-changer and John's been constantly refining that system ever since. Rogue Tuning/Josh introduced a system maybe a decade later that appeared to be very similar, as you say. The Vitesse system doesn't need to be modified to have a 28-pin EPROM socket, however, for somewhat ironic reasons I believe. The Rogue system became popular when Josh was around. People thought of it as less expensive than the original VR system, and Josh was very active on the boards and would help with code/map changes and such when people experienced problems, and would frequently post info about his latest experiments, etc.. I don't think LR has the wherewithal to help in the same way that Josh did, so these days that system is lacking a key part of what made it popular I'd say. Having seem both system in action on many cars, I've always felt the Vitesse system was better sorted out of the box (just one man's opinion), but there was a time when saying that out loud on this board would start a flame war. So anyway, no, not the same developer.
(Side note, Huntley sold $400 chips to go with his MAF before running off to Costa Rica in the middle of the night. I once did a hex dump of Huntley's chip and found copyright notices from another well-known chip seller....).The Vitesse system was a true game-changer and John's been constantly refining that system ever since. Rogue Tuning/Josh introduced a system maybe a decade later that appeared to be very similar, as you say. The Vitesse system doesn't need to be modified to have a 28-pin EPROM socket, however, for somewhat ironic reasons I believe. The Rogue system became popular when Josh was around. People thought of it as less expensive than the original VR system, and Josh was very active on the boards and would help with code/map changes and such when people experienced problems, and would frequently post info about his latest experiments, etc.. I don't think LR has the wherewithal to help in the same way that Josh did, so these days that system is lacking a key part of what made it popular I'd say. Having seem both system in action on many cars, I've always felt the Vitesse system was better sorted out of the box (just one man's opinion), but there was a time when saying that out loud on this board would start a flame war. So anyway, no, not the same developer.
There systems are geared towards high horsepower and this thread is the antithesis of that. This thread is about a maf system geared towards stock outputs utilizing stock injectors. A maf system doesn't have to be sold with 80 lb injectors and be able to provide double the hp generation to be effective on a stock car.
09-19-2019, 03:35 PM
#22
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
just because it has 80lb injectors (which are 35 years younger and a much better design than the stock ones anyways) and can support double the HP doesn't mean it won't work on an otherwise bone-stock car.
the MAF is very smart...the size of the tube is irrelevant here.
the MAF is very smart...the size of the tube is irrelevant here.
09-19-2019, 04:49 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
just because it has 80lb injectors (which are 35 years younger and a much better design than the stock ones anyways) and can support double the HP doesn't mean it won't work on an otherwise bone-stock car.
the MAF is very smart...the size of the tube is irrelevant here.
the MAF is very smart...the size of the tube is irrelevant here.
Agreed. Jimbo is like a time-traveler dropping back in after all these years. It will take him a little while to get used to our new-fangled modern ways.
I vividly remember what it was like to modify these cars in the late '90s/early '00s --as Jimbo obviously does-- but it's such a different world now.
09-19-2019, 05:56 PM
#24
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Agreed. Jimbo is like a time-traveler dropping back in after all these years. It will take him a little while to get used to our new-fangled modern ways. I vividly remember what it was like to modify these cars in the late '90s/early '00s --as Jimbo obviously does-- but it's such a different world now.
I vividly remember what it was like to modify these cars in the late '90s/early '00s --as Jimbo obviously does-- but it's such a different world now. don't forget to calibrate your MAF diameter to your injectors...
09-19-2019, 06:29 PM
#25
Banned
Thread Starter
Agreed. Jimbo is like a time-traveler dropping back in after all these years. It will take him a little while to get used to our new-fangled modern ways. I vividly remember what it was like to modify these cars in the late '90s/early '00s --as Jimbo obviously does-- but it's such a different world now.
I vividly remember what it was like to modify these cars in the late '90s/early '00s --as Jimbo obviously does-- but it's such a different world now. I have completely reversed the installation and the car runs perfectly with the stock chips, injectors and afm. At this point i'm convinced that there is something defective in the product or this is just the character of the system. At least the character of the system on my particular vehicle. So its probably heading back to VR unless they can remedy the situation.
09-19-2019, 07:17 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Ha! You guys are funny. Just for clarification purposes. I will inform you that I've owned a VR maf in the past and I currently own the latest VR maf system. I'm not speaking from non experience. The system does work but, I'm currently experiencing a rough idle which I'm not particularly happy with.
I have completely reversed the installation and the car runs perfectly with the stock chips, injectors and afm. At this point i'm convinced that there is something defective in the product or this is just the character of the system. At least the character of the system on my particular vehicle. So its probably heading back to VR unless they can remedy the situation.
I have completely reversed the installation and the car runs perfectly with the stock chips, injectors and afm. At this point i'm convinced that there is something defective in the product or this is just the character of the system. At least the character of the system on my particular vehicle. So its probably heading back to VR unless they can remedy the situation.
09-19-2019, 07:19 PM
#27
Three Wheelin'
Well there is always the chance of a bad product?? But there is also "user error" and 25 year old DME/KLR, Distribution Box and OEM Engine Harness to take into account also?? any one of which can cause "issues??"
In any case, I doubt that any of the few 951's putting down 600 hp are running on any of the very old OEM wring and engine managements system, but I don't know ... people do stuff.
In any case, I doubt that any of the few 951's putting down 600 hp are running on any of the very old OEM wring and engine managements system, but I don't know ... people do stuff.
09-19-2019, 07:48 PM
#28
Banned
Thread Starter
Ah, sorry to hear that. Your comments about needing to choose between drivability and power were true 20 years ago, but are no longer true, hence my attempt at a joke with the time-traveler comment. Sorry if I hit a sour chord -- I thought you were just chatting cars, didn't realize you were struggling with yours. I obviously can't speculate on what's going on with your car, but I can tell you (first hand) that when everything is working as designed, the VR system can give you factory-smooth performance from idle to at least 500rwhp (on a dynojet anyway). I'm not doubting that your car has a rough idle, I'm just saying that's a problem you are having, rather than a limitation on the modern MAFs in general. Maybe post a video of your idle and any data you have to go with it (MAF voltage, AFRs etc.). Sounds like you've been around the block already, but rough idle is often a vacuum leak or bad ground, etc., and the MAF tends to be more sensitive to those things than the factory AFM.
A short time after I installed the maf my dme died. That was indicator one that something was wrong. The idle is very unstable and sputters at around 1000 rpm. Everywhere else it runs fine.
I don't think Im going to take a chance on dme number 2 unless VR will send out a new quality tested system. Something is definitely wrong..
09-19-2019, 07:59 PM
#29
Race Car
Best Maf setup I had was the early version of Josh’s M-Tune... it was called the C-Tune (custom tune) and ran a 90mm Ford Cobra MAF sensor, I still have the setup and honestly the driving in my turbo car was night and day difference even with stock injectors. I later switched to 80lbs injectors.
09-19-2019, 08:56 PM
#30
Banned
Thread Starter