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Children and a Spec Miata sidelined my turbo for the better part of a decade. But I am back on the turbo now. I have a 8V 3.0L being built for me now and am on the hunt for a standalone.
So here I am a decade on and trying to catch up on what the standalone market has to offer us turbo owners.
My basic requirements are self learning, integrated boost control, preferably stock reference sensor set up, and local support for tuning.
Would love to hear from the community what the best way to go is.
The just released MaxxEcu Pro is likely to be the standard going forward, look up Emanuel Galosson on the Premier 944 Turbo Facebook group for details.
Regarding standalone,,,the purpose/application of your build as well as budget should probably be what dictates which standalone engine management you go with. Meaning if you're building a race car or a car that will primarily be a track car there are ECU manufactures and ECU features that you might want to consider more than others. This will also depend on what series you are racing with and what that particular scrutineering body may require. If you are building a street car then your considerations and needs will likely be quite different.
I've spent some time researching this topic myself, specifically for the 944 platform, and I've also spent time professionally working with motorsport level ECU's as well as various data acquisition platforms and electronics packages. It's my conclusion that at the end of the day you basically can't go wrong ANY of the current mainstream ECU manufactures. They all have essentially the same functionality and features. It comes down to how much you want to spend, what specific features you want/need, and personal preference.
This is just my personal opinion, but I'd say the main ECU manufactures worth considering are Haltech, Link, Motec, and AEM.
-Motec is arguably the best choice however their stuff is quite expensive compared to the others and they have an annoying business model of piecemealing and up-charding for everything. That being said, their M1 Tune software and i2Pro analysis packages are awesome. Also their support is great and they pretty much set the bar for the others.
-Haltech is a great option and also has excellent support and is popular in the "tuner" industry
-Link is also a great option and recently released a new line of ECU's (G4X) which are a fairly big step above Haltech's Elite series ECU's for basically the same price
-AEM is the only U.S based manufacture that I know and seem to be fairly popular as well however I don't have any experience or knowledge of their stuff. Also it's worth noting that while Motec, Haltech, and Link aren't U.S. based they still have support offices in the U.S.
Maxxecu, ECUMasters are also options however they don't seem to be quite as proven as the others. Both appear make nice ECU's with all the same basic functionalities as the others. ECUMasters' EMU Black is VERY affordable... I've used their CAN Switch Board which is a really cool product but I don't know much about their ECU. For a budget build though it seems like a great option.
If you're not tuning the engine yourself then I'd research engine tuners around you and find what software they are familiar with as that will make things much easier when you go to have your engine tuned after installing a standalone. You did mention self learning though, so if you're interested in learning to configure and tune yourself then I'd suggest considering Link ECU. Their "help" section is pretty awesome. That sounds like an odd thing to be concerned with but when you're learning yourself it makes a big difference. You can press F1 on any map, calibration, table, input/output, setup page, etc. and a help window will pop up with that specific function and it's relation to the specific feature you are trying to use if for. The verbiage is very well written, comprehensive and easy to understand. It's soooo much easier than opening a generic help tab and searching for what you're stuck on, or searching for the .pdf manual on your c-drive and having to sift through hundreds of pages for what you're looking for. Like I said, silly as it sounds it's a very good feature. They also have a 944 specific 132 tooth trigger option and have a trigger offset resolution of 0.1 degrees which should make dialing in your cam sync easier. If you get to the point where you've narrowed down a few ECU's I'd suggest downloading each software package and poking around to see which you like best and find easiest to work with. Motec, Haltech, and Link all have free software downloads and supply base maps you can open and play around with each to see which you like best.
Lastly, as a precaution...I'd be careful with the "Premier" page. It is not run as a well informed and open to opinion platform. Potentially a lot of good information on there however it can be quite one sided and very biased. People are often muted and/or banned by the guy/guys running it if they don't share the same opinions, or question anything. I'd also caution against falling for the Standalone ECU group buy they have without doing actual research and understanding what your true needs are... Those guys are preaching that ECU as the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I don't see it. I would venture to guess that this manufacture, being relatively new, were the only ones willing to entertain a group buy. It also seems glaringly obvious that not much research was done when spec'ing out the particular ECU's that were chosen, or the people organizing the group buy were taken advantage of. The level of those particular ECU's for a 944, especially a street car are so overkill it's laughable.
Last edited by SirLapsalot; 05-12-2020 at 10:45 AM.
The car is going to be a track day car. I do not plan on racing it and will keep the full interior with a half cage.
Haltech was my front runner. The main concern that I have is solving for the crank trigger. I would really like to find something that would work with the factory set up. It used to be that the only option was for the trigger wheel on the front pulley. It seems like I have some work to do.
I got this quite some time ago because it (and its cousin the ViPec) had been used successfully with the speed and reference sensors, and because Link was an no established company with quality hardware and support. This one is longer their latest and greatest ECU, but more than enough for any 944. This harness is not currently set up for a cam sensor if memory serves, due to concerns about smog compliance etc. But honestly it would be a shame not to add a cam sensor with this hardware for full sequential injection.
While I'd love you sell you my Link G4, there are plenty of other proven systems out there, and it may not be worth getting bogged down trying to use the factory speed and ref sensors. They often seem to be a pain, no matter what the salesmen say. A front-mount trigger like the one below opens up a whole universe of stand-alones, using a trigger that can be installed in a hour or two...
Re the MaxxEcu, SirLapsalot makes a good point -- that system 'might' become the next go-to computer and greatest thing since sliced bread for the 944, but it wouldn't be the first patch of greener 944 grass that turned out pretty brown and weedy. Only time will tell.
I know that you decided to go in a different direction from the G4.
What made you change your mind? And how did you land on the G4 to begin with?
The CA smog laws and technicians just kept getting more and more picky and I worried that might become an issue over time. But, probably more importantly, I ended up working with John at Vitesse to gain control over my timing maps, so that I could adjust both timing and fuel as needed. The Vitesse stuff otherwise worked so well, getting control of the timing pretty much sealed the deal and I lost interest on the G4. The VR system also accommodates a wide range of engine configurations without much or any map changes -- I can change cams, turn the boost from 12psi to 22psi, add exhausts, whatever, all without changing the maps much if at all. Same cannot be said with speed density systems. There's a reason I never went into sales I guess...
I ended up with the G4 because, at the time, there were a number of people successfully running the G4 and ViPec on 951s with stock triggers. I ended up calling Neil Harvey at Performance Developments, and he assured me he'd run them with success as well, and I trusted his reputation (and the fact that he reps plenty of stand-alones and could have nudged me to something else if he thought necessary). He also offered the matching harness built to his standards, which no one else could match in my eyes.
The thing that seems to really be causing problems for these cars are the wiring harnesses at this point. They are 35 years old in some cases and the engine compartment / packaging retains heat in a way that really does a number on them. Even harnesses that appear nice and supple at this point are really showing some age if you remove the brown covering. I know my personal harness is ailing and will need to be replaced in the next couple years, so I've been thinking about options.
The problem with not following the herd on ECU systems is that almost nobody on these boards are really qualified to start with a blank slate motec or equivalent and develop a well rounded tune. For the most part I include myself in that. Part throttle and response maps are what make the car enjoyable to drive, and they are also the most time consuming to develop on the dyno or street driving with data collection. Being time consuming is going to be a big driver of total project cost, so it's not a factor to be overlooked. Wide open throttle tuning is easy, and WOT maps are available all over the place for these cars. It's easy to tweak the power maps on the dyno even as an intermediate tuner (I also include myself in this category). This is one of the reasons I really like my M-tune. Joshua spent *years* dialing in the tuning, and it works. I have no trouble massaging it to accept different blends of ethanol, and different injectors. It does exactly what I want it to, and it has good manners. It's not for everyone. The car really needs to be in perfect condition for vacuum leaks, and wiring. The end user may need to do some trouble shooting. I've found several problems with the M-tune harnesses that I had to roll up my sleeves and diagnose myself because there is no remaining support. For me, this is more aligned with my skills than starting from a blank map on a new system. I also would not consider a VEMS plug and play because it doesn't get you away from the harness issue.
Now that my harness is on its last legs, I need to decide if I want to spend $1200 for a Kroon harness, or get one of the maxx ecus... at that point it comes with harness materials and the group buy was $1,400, so it would have been basically free considering i need the harness parts. I'm also told there is a person in Europe who was previously associated with Porsche Motorsport who is going to fully instrument his 951 and develop a max tune. So this may give some an opportunity to purchase a fully vetted part throttle map for a new system, again going back to the very limited number of 944 owners who are truly capable of doing this work. I don't see a problem with the ECU being overkill when I consider that it is basically zero cost for what I am doing. I haven't looked closely enough at maxx to see if I like the interface yet as I'm not ready to make a decision. I was not involved with the group buy, but it was all handled by the ECU company in the form of coupon codes rather than an individual organizing it or making money off of the deal. But yes, unfortunately it is very hard to get suppliers interested in anything for a 944. This is in most part due to the relatively low number of 944s remaining, and the socioeconomic status of the typical 944 owner. No one wants to invest development costs in something that isn't likely to make a return.
I am also a moderator on the premier page. It is definitely not a free speech zone. There are probably 50 years of 944 experience or more between the moderators, and commonly known disinformation is deleted without pause or apology. Mutes are not uncommon, as the intent is to have a place where anyone can watch, and only the most qualified are posting... People who do not know which subset they are in may be guided with a mute. They are all temporary, it's not possible to mute someone indefinitely. It's not always easy to break into a group with new ground breaking ideas, and it's not anyone's intent to stifle creativity. That said, the primary members are all working on 400+whp projects and we share data and experimentation behind the scenes offline. So, while members may see the tops of the trees and assume everything is opinion based, the moderators have seen the roots of the projects and ideas.
So, all that said... Start with a new harness, and then get whatever ECU your local reputable tuner is most comfortable working with.
To echo Auto_Werks 3.6's point regarding wire harness, absolutely. Very good point to bring up. Any standalone the OP or anybody goes with will need a completely new harness built. Not necessarily cheap but not crazy expensive or very difficult to do if you have the correct tools and know how. There are a multitude of resources online for people that are interested in learning on wiring loom building and design.
Regarding the notion of following the herd for base maps, that's definitely a good point. However base maps are just that…base maps. The OP or anybody else shouldn't expect to take someone's calibration and flash it to their same ECU and be good to go. You're still going to need to take it to a dyno and have it tuned. Additionally regarding other 944 owners, including those that are well qualified within the 944/951 community have been tuning on Link, Haltech, and Motec for a while. I imagine some of them would not have a problem sharing calibration files or some of their part/full throttle maps. But again, that's only going to get you up and running. Definitely no substitute for a proper tune on the dyno and street.
**Edit: Also, to add/clarify - In order to use someone else's base map as a starting point I think you're going to want to be using the same camshaft, valves, intake, throttle body, exhaust, turbo, fuel injectors/pressure, compression ratio, displacement in order to have some level of accuracy. Additionally if you're sharing entire files then you'll need to be running the same triggers (and still probably need to set your base timing/trigger offset), the same analog inputs/sensor calibrations wired the same way, etc. So anyway, just seems like it could be mistaken as a plug/play simple upload when it likely is not.
Also one thing that hasn't been mentioned is knock control. All of these ECU's have closed loop knock control and it should definitely be taken advantage of. Seems like there is often times a notion that if a tune is done "right" and a little on the safe side then there is no need for knock control, which really is bogus. I think some people may have that opinion because they either have more experience on older systems that didn't have knock control or it was rudimentary at that time period so they simply don't have experience with it or don't want to take the time to figure it out. It's quite critical on a turbo car. So I'd suggest to be warry of any tuner or anybody that is making a base map for you that may tell you it's not necessary. Also, not to sound like I'm pushing Link but Link does have a really cool tool called Knock Block. It can either be used for listening for knock while tuning and setting up your knock control, or it can plug directly into the mic port on your PC and interface with their tuning software allowing you to perform a frequency analysis on your knock signal so that you can very accurately setup your knock control based on your engines exact knock frequency and background noise. For a street car that may see many different fuel qualities, and ambient conditions it would really be silly not to use knock control.
Last edited by SirLapsalot; 05-12-2020 at 06:19 PM.
**Edit: Also, to add/clarify - In order to use someone else's base map as a starting point I think you're going to want to be using the same camshaft, valves, intake, throttle body, exhaust, turbo, fuel injectors/pressure, compression ratio, displacement in order to have some level of accuracy. Additionally if you're sharing entire files then you'll need to be running the same triggers (and still probably need to set your base timing/trigger offset), the same analog inputs/sensor calibrations wired the same way, etc. So anyway, just seems like it could be mistaken as a plug/play simple upload when it likely is not.
This is the way cookie cutter 944 builds are done though. Exactly the target audience for a plug in ECU is the guy using the same stock block, head, cam, valves, intake, throttle body. The exhaust and turbo in my experience has not been a big problem, because there's no getting around calibrating the power side of the tune. *Most* 944 turbo owners would be much better suited having something like a Cobb access port, but the cars are just too old for that, and generally too under maintained to just accept a chip and move on with life. We artificially end up with more people trying to use stand alone systems than makes any sense. These people are giving up factory idle, warm up, and transient tunes because the cars are antique. Yeah, the guy with a full custom head, exhaust, intake, throttle body, bore, stroke, etc needs a stand alone. But they are either an expert tuner and the world is their oyster for selecting the unit they want to use.... or they need to get the system that their tuner likes, or the same one their buddy has with the exact same setup. Yes there are *some* people who are expert tuners and also have 944s, but they are the minority. Most people are not being done any favors by the fact that "slap the stand alone du jour on it" is the community stance regarding tuning.
This is the way cookie cutter 944 builds are done though. Exactly the target audience for a plug in ECU is the guy using the same stock block, head, cam, valves, intake, throttle body. The exhaust and turbo in my experience has not been a big problem, because there's no getting around calibrating the power side of the tune. *Most* 944 turbo owners would be much better suited having something like a Cobb access port, but the cars are just too old for that, and generally too under maintained to just accept a chip and move on with life. We artificially end up with more people trying to use stand alone systems than makes any sense. These people are giving up factory idle, warm up, and transient tunes because the cars are antique. Yeah, the guy with a full custom head, exhaust, intake, throttle body, bore, stroke, etc needs a stand alone. But they are either an expert tuner and the world is their oyster for selecting the unit they want to use.... or they need to get the system that their tuner likes, or the same one their buddy has with the exact same setup. Yes there are *some* people who are expert tuners and also have 944s, but they are the minority. Most people are not being done any favors by the fact that "slap the stand alone du jour on it" is the community stance regarding tuning.
To be honest I'm not completely sure I understand what point's you're making but anyway, the OP asked about standalones for his 3.0L build. Not sure he's looking for a cookie cutter solution but maybe he is.
Also, I don't see how the airflow from the exhaust ports to the turbo and out would not effect the tune as most current ECU's use a volumetric efficiency fuel model...obviously those items have an effect on VE and their effects will be present at part throttle as well as WOT. Also, you certainly shouldn't be giving up any idle quality (modern ECU's can drive the OEM idle valve no problem), startability, warm/cold or transient drivability with a proper tune...
To be honest I'm not completely sure I understand what point's you're making but anyway, the OP asked about standalones for his 3.0L build. Not sure he's looking for a cookie cutter solution but maybe he is.
Also, I don't see how the airflow from the exhaust ports to the turbo and out would not effect the tune as most current ECU's use a volumetric efficiency fuel model...obviously those items have an effect on VE and their effects will be present at part throttle as well as WOT. Also, you certainly shouldn't be giving up any idle quality (modern ECU's can drive the OEM idle valve no problem), startability, warm/cold or transient drivability with a proper tune...
What I'm saying is that people DO give up those qualities because the setup skills are not in everyone's wheelhouse. I've cleaned up messes left behind by "pro shops", and individual tuners. Maybe those skills are fully in your skill set, but that's not most people. Id go so far as to say quite a few shops don't do a fantastic job aside from the WOT maps. I looked at a friend's motec calibration at SCCA Solo nationals last year and the timing map was a fixed value, like a boat with a locked distributor. This was on a high dollar aircooled 911 engine. His engine definitely cost him 2x what my whole 944 is worth, and that's what the calibration was. So, I don't know how you're exposed to so many awesome tuners, but I'm jealous, because most of what I see in the real world is crap.
Your advice for the most part is 100% basic. If I googled "what's a good stand alone" I'm guessing everything you suggested would be up in the first two pages of results. It's not 944 specific, and isn't terribly helpful for the question of what stand alone to use on his 3 liter either... which is also not a rare combination of parts in 2020.
I don't know what to tell you... I haven't seen exhaust and turbo changes make a big difference in part throttle / cold start / or idle. For the 3rd time, you obviously have to tweak the tune above 100kpa. Could be that the Mtune does a better job with setup changes because it uses the MAF and MAP together and has the actual air mass vs an arbitrary VE table. Sure my old 911 stand alone probably would have needed some help with an exhaust change since it was running alpha N.. but most things aren't that crude. I've had a lot of different exhaust and turbos on my car and it still starts on alcohol in 30 degree weather, without software tweaks.
What I'm saying is that people DO give up those qualities because the setup skills are not in everyone's wheelhouse. I've cleaned up messes left behind by "pro shops", and individual tuners. Maybe those skills are fully in your skill set, but that's not most people. Id go so far as to say quite a few shops don't do a fantastic job aside from the WOT maps. I looked at a friend's motec calibration at SCCA Solo nationals last year and the timing map was a fixed value, like a boat with a locked distributor. This was on a high dollar aircooled 911 engine. His engine definitely cost him 2x what my whole 944 is worth, and that's what the calibration was. So, I don't know how you're exposed to so many awesome tuners, but I'm jealous, because most of what I see in the real world is crap.
Your advice for the most part is 100% basic. If I googled "what's a good stand alone" I'm guessing everything you suggested would be up in the first two pages of results. It's not 944 specific, and isn't terribly helpful for the question of what stand alone to use on his 3 liter either... which is also not a rare combination of parts in 2020.
I don't know what to tell you... I haven't seen exhaust and turbo changes make a big difference in part throttle / cold start / or idle. For the 3rd time, you obviously have to tweak the tune above 100kpa. Could be that the Mtune does a better job with setup changes because it uses the MAF and MAP together and has the actual air mass vs an arbitrary VE table. Sure my old 911 stand alone probably would have needed some help with an exhaust change since it was running alpha N.. but most things aren't that crude. I've had a lot of different exhaust and turbos on my car and it still starts on alcohol in 30 degree weather, without software tweaks.
Yes, of course there are many tuner shops out there that do poor work, valid point and worth bringing up.
Hah, yea you're right, 100% basic. I guess I just can't see the roots yet, probably just seeing the top of the trees ya know?
I think I gave the guy legit advice based on my own research and experience...some of which is 944 specific as there are 951's running around with Link and Motec functioning very well, not to mention those particular ECU's are very well respected in the industry. Additionally, as I said, the Link G4X has a 944 specific 132 tooth trigger wheel option (he specifically asked about OEM trigger options), people have been running Link, Haltec and Motec on 944's with success for years now.... So I'm not sure what your issue is?
The guy wants to know what the standalone market has to offer for turbo owners. Whats your 100% not basic 944 specific suggestion? Use a fairly unknown ECU which doesn't appear to be used on a 944/951 anywhere currently??? Use an M-Tune? Would you like to provide some value or just continue to derail the thread?
I definitely didn't say a turbo or exhaust makes a big difference in startability or idle, I simply said it will have an effect on the VE...because it will, particularly if one is using a turbo with a small hot side and more back pressure compared to someone with the same tune but with a larger turbo, or similarly with different headers/crossovers. Then I stated a proper tune shouldn't have any sacrifices related to part throttle, idle, startbality, etc., as you seemed to suggest... So maybe you're confusing what was written. Idk.
So, all that said... Start with a new harness, and then get whatever ECU your local reputable tuner is most comfortable working with.
I already answered his question regarding which Ecu he should get^^^^
And someone already did recommend the maxx Ecu, which is the only new development in he 944 world in the last 5 years.
i did forget to mention googling “good stand alone systems”
what else did did we forget? Or does that about cover it?
05-11-2020, 06:13 PM
Back after a Long break
This harness is not currently set up for a cam sensor if memory serves, due to concerns about smog compliance etc. But honestly it would be a shame not to add a cam sensor with this hardware for full sequential injection. 
