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Doing a 3.0L 8V turbo engine build, target ~500 crank HP.
Found a shop that do a lot of sleeving and they have presented me with two option of sleeves from a Westwood in the UK (I'm based in Europe).
Dry flanged sleeves or semi-wet sleeves that do not connect together at the top.
The semi-wet sleeves, https://www.design911.com/Porsche/94...-cma81-cmo123/ , requires removing the entire original cylinder above the cooling floor which would remove the siamesing between the cylinders which makes me a bit concerned .
Westwood claim that these semi-wet sleeves will give better structral ridigity in the engine and that the dry sleeves won't work for 500 crank HP. Not sure I understand why the dry liners would give worse structural ridgity, sure theoriginbal cylinder walls are made thinner but the sleeve should add a lot of strength.
Anyone here running dry sleeves in a 3.0L high power turbo engine?
Anyone that has used the Westwood semi-wet sleeves?
I can't comment on dry sleeves but I believe a deck plate addresses rigidity issues pretty effectively. The fastest 3l 8V I drove did 100-200 kph in 6s flat (a shade faster than even Corleone's mighty build, for the few who remember) and ran on Nikasil'd stock cylinders with a deck plate. Since you are in Europe I suggest you get in touch with http://www.etg-technik.de/ who will install on a supplied block a deck plate and provide custom pistons suited to your needs. IMO this pretty much skips the need for steel sleeves and the troubles related to different expansion rates.
Dry sleeving a 3L block requires more expertise than the 2.5L IMO. With the 2.5L block, you can anchor straight sleeves at the bottom which will see a lot less heat and pressure. With the 3L block the dry sleeves need to be flanged and anchor at the top and they will sink if not installed properly. When they sink, they leave the block proud and when the gasket goes it can ruin the block (especially at 550 hp).
I can't comment on dry sleeves but I believe a deck plate addresses rigidity issues pretty effectively. The fastest 3l 8V I drove did 100-200 kph in 6s flat (a shade faster than even Corleone's mighty build, for the few who remember) and ran on Nikasil'd stock cylinders with a deck plate. Since you are in Europe I suggest you get in touch with http://www.etg-technik.de/ who will install on a supplied block a deck plate and provide custom pistons suited to your needs. IMO this pretty much skips the need for steel sleeves and the troubles related to different expansion rates.
It does but not sure that is needed on the 3L engines where the cooling "floor" is so much higher up than on the 2.5L. There a number of race/track-day 3.0L 8V builds at ~450 crank HP running the original Alusil cylinders and they haven't had any issues with block rigidity.
We had Nikasil on our list but sinve it can't be done locally in Sweden we ended up with very long lead times. The sleeve solution is also more "serviceable" in case something happens
Not sure why they say not to use dry liners above 500hp , plenty of people are . Here's a picture of westwood flanged dry liners on my 3L turbo.
Nice! exactly what I was hoping to see in this thread!
How much power are you running?
Seems there was a misunderstanding with Westwood, they assumed I meant non-flanged liners which they didn't recommend for those power levels, the flanged ductile ones are OK
BTW, how did you get thje block that clean, glass bead blasting? I tried soda blasting but didn't get that finish.
Dry sleeving a 3L block requires more expertise than the 2.5L IMO. With the 2.5L block, you can anchor straight sleeves at the bottom which will see a lot less heat and pressure. With the 3L block the dry sleeves need to be flanged and anchor at the top and they will sink if not installed properly. When they sink, they leave the block proud and when the gasket goes it can ruin the block (especially at 550 hp).
Exactly the reason why I talked to multiple shops, this has been an issue on some builds here in Sweden. This shop do a lot of sleeving in LSx engines with flanged dry sleeves.
it was 13 years ago we were going to build a powerful 3 litre 944 turbo (but now have no parts to sell and no intention of making anything to sell so this is not a sales post - just to add an alternative suggestion! and demonstrate technical interest and options without making any controversial claims or points)
We chose the 944 2.5 block because it has deeper coolant channels, a more solid stud fixing area and twin inlets from the coolant pump (see photos below).
We used the two inlets to split the coolant flow into 2 separate routes. partially fitted cylinder to show coolant control channels Baffles in place Finished and fitted LHS = 944 turbo cylinder Wills rings and machined recesses Twin inlets on this 2.5 block Wossner pistons Stronger and larger high tensile cylinder studs.
We fitted in baffles and made alloy cylinders (NIkasil plated) to maintain that split.
We had Wossner pistons made to have low geometric C/R (to allow for high boost) and used a 968 head (so we could reverse the inlet camshaft timing by reversing the solenoid polarity to reduce valve overlap at high boost).
We fitted bigger stronger head studs, Wills rings (to seal the head gaskets), obtained sodium filled valves and piper camshafts but never finished it.
The cylinders are shown in a picture following on the LHS (Gen 2 997 in the centre and 997 3.8 Gen 1 on the RHS notice the reduce coolant depth 9like the 944 S2, 2.7 and 968 blocks) showing the additional coolant depth area.with the 2.5 Turbo block - the idea was to split the coolant each feeding two cylinders (instead of 4) and using the two 968 head outlets (rear one for cabin heating system) and use two radiators each side in the front wing with a large central intercooler in the space the original radiator took up.
The top hat of the liners stabilises the cylinder roundness while locating against a machined location in the block to close the deck from cylinder flexing.
All the parts have now been disposed of (and we have no intention of repeating the project - now moved onto 997 Gen 1 and Gen 2 variants) but I think the reasons it was all designed the way it was are valid considerations although it was only a 3.0 litre (and I understand longer strokes have been used since)..
I hope we will hear how it turned out some time in the future
Baz.
Last edited by Barry Hart; 12-20-2020 at 09:11 AM.
12-18-2020, 11:14 AM
Sleeving a 3.0L block, dry or wet?
