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I’m still here. Been around a fair while and rarely post but read plenty of stuff.
I bought one of Sherry66’s “spare” 3.0 16v T engines and it’s happily doing 400+ in my car and spooling up nice and early now I’ve mapped the boost table in VEMS from the log files.
Sure - early days so far but now seeing peak boost at 3650 rpm and an incessant surge to the redline is a VERY different experience from my previous torque-monster 8v.
The most telling thing from the logs is my involuntarily reaction of throttle reducing from 100% as higher revs as the world really starts to come at you very quickly - seeing near enough 100mph at the top of 3rd.
As Thom has said though, it’s the engine the car has always deserved - surprises a lot of people, driver included!
Not got as many miles under my belt as I’d hoped as a freeze plug on the front of the block was leaking and left that to my Indys to sort. Track day booked for early August though - so a target to aim for.
Re my previous comment on the sense of occasion, I now find myself treating the car with a lot more respect not only from the driver's seat but also just walking around it in the garage feels special in a way it never did in the 17 years I have had it. How suggestive it can get already at a restrained pace calls for a high level attention, as it could hover over the road like a flying carpet at more than twice the speed limit if the chassis was not a little overwhelmed with the general pace and did not reveal bumps that seemed to not exist before. The slightly oaf-ish demonstration of torque of the 8V engine and its frustrating lack of breathing past 6k rpm have been replaced by some rpm-addicted yet civilised junky that seems to never tire of displaying all it can give the more it is being pushed. The instant push of the elephant was replaced by the swiftness of a cheetah that will leave most other animals for dead once launched. Experiencing such a radical change of character within the same car is disconcerting to the point of causing slightly anxious thoughts of experiencing something very wrong if keeping the foot down beyond 5k rpm with all that top end surge... Whilst I was able to fully tune the 8V engine on the road it seems strapping the car on the dyno will be needed to wander into what seems to me now the mythical and hazardous realms of higher boost lands with a twin horn cam evil head... haha, for what it's worth anyway.
Sure - early days so far but now seeing peak boost at 3650 rpm and an incessant surge to the redline is a VERY different experience from my previous torque-monster 8v.
The most telling thing from the logs is my involuntarily reaction of throttle reducing from 100% as higher revs as the world really starts to come at you very quickly - seeing near enough 100mph at the top of 3rd.
As Thom has said though, it’s the engine the car has always deserved - surprises a lot of people, driver included!
I've been finding my car gives a very similar experience. Finally on track after dyno tuning and redoing the rear suspension and shifting into 4th at full power on the long straight is now feeling really fast. It is set for 215KPA target manifold pressure on the 3.0 16v, and the way it picks up speed in the top end takes some getting used to for sure! My other track car is an enduro N/A 944 so I'm now arriving at corners a WHOLE lot faster than that car. I think I'll dial back the boost a bit to reduce the pace and hopefully increase longevity.
Sure - early days so far but now seeing peak boost at 3650 rpm and an incessant surge to the redline is a VERY different experience from my previous torque-monster 8v.
The most telling thing from the logs is my involuntarily reaction of throttle reducing from 100% as higher revs as the world really starts to come at you very quickly - seeing near enough 100mph at the top of 3rd.
As Thom has said though, it’s the engine the car has always deserved - surprises a lot of people, driver included!
Not got as many miles under my belt as I’d hoped as a freeze plug on the front of the block was leaking and left that to my Indys to sort. Track day booked for early August though - so a target to aim for.
I took a look at your dyno as always interested to get more data on these 3.0 setups. A word of caution - looking at your numbers at 18 psi, combined with the fact that the HX35 is probably too small for a 3.0 16v.....just be careful working the car hard on track. The turbo is a little small and the kkk #10 turbine housing also won't help as it too is small, even for the HX35, particularly on a 3.0. The concern is you may be running a lot more back pressure than is ideal, if you are not already logging this? It could get you into some detonation issues at the track. You really need a turbine wheel that is T350 sized or above to avoid back pressure issues. You might want to dial it back to 15 psi for the track just to be safe, and think about a bigger turbo asap. It is not about chasing power but you need to let that engine breath. You will make the numbers you are making now at much lower boost levels and the engine will be a lot happier.
The hx35 wheel sizes are very similar to gt3582r so should be good for 3l16v on road car at least .
Completely different turbos and rated for different power levels. But ignoring that for a moment the kkk housing is tiny and will never be enough for a 3.0 16v. I am no Holset expert but the HX40 is usually the starting point for a 3.0 and probably more comparable to a 3582, but still not as big on the compressor side. Also re the road car thing, you might get away with it on the road but the track was mentioned. Just check back pressure to be safe. Engines are expensive!
I bow to your superior knowledge .
Personally I have an hx35 with a t3 .82 exhaust housing and increased the crossover pipe diameter on one car and an hy35 which was machined out for hx35 wheels on another .
Sid who used to post on here had some great results with holsets and smallish hotsides
I took a look at your dyno as always interested to get more data on these 3.0 setups. A word of caution - looking at your numbers at 18 psi, combined with the fact that the HX35 is probably too small for a 3.0 16v.....just be careful working the car hard on track. The turbo is a little small and the kkk #10 turbine housing also won't help as it too is small, even for the HX35, particularly on a 3.0. The concern is you may be running a lot more back pressure than is ideal, if you are not already logging this? It could get you into some detonation issues at the track. You really need a turbine wheel that is T350 sized or above to avoid back pressure issues. You might want to dial it back to 15 psi for the track just to be safe, and think about a bigger turbo asap. It is not about chasing power but you need to let that engine breath. You will make the numbers you are making now at much lower boost levels and the engine will be a lot happier.
At the time of building with so many things being a voyage of discovery - the fact that the turbo was a direct bolt-on was very very appealing. Especially as it let me line everything up on the engine stand so that the exhaust manifolds could be modified in situ.
I’ll be the first to admit that I find the whole turbo selection very confusing but luckily I do have a very good welder/fabricator who can adapt the crossover mount, etc. So - in a nutshell, can you point me in the direction of a suitable turbo that’s not going to break the bank please?
The turbo was originally built by Emanuel Galossen and he told me that the hot side would be restrictive and I could just bolt a bigger one on, scallop the engine mount and modify the flange for the downpipe - thoughts?
Love these impressions and expertise guys! Especially Thom's comparison between shove of Elephant vs swiftness of Cheetah!
I found a very brief flyby clip of our first shakedown from 2017. Only lasted 2 laps due to crank signal error. Packed everything up and drove back the 2.5 hours to the shop. Boring! https://www.youtube.com/shorts/KXdxSbTOSjA
The badly undersized stock IC on Dave's engine will certainly prevent his turbo to flow as much as it can and perhaps avoid him to reach dangerous levels of back pressure, although that's not suggesting he will be fine no matter how much he pushes it. These two bottlenecks probably cost him between 100 and 150 hp on the dyno depending on boost level.
My 16V engine had a far better top end than the 8V engine when it was initially running with the stock intercooler but it was nowhere near the riot it is now with a huge custom FMIC and a very large air filter.
Actually had a look back and the Hy35 I have had a 56 x 83 comp wheel put in with larger diameter crossover which is slightly bigger than the gt3582 comp wheel at 56 x 82 but stand to be corrected .
The first 16v I did used a k27/8 , now that probably was to small . David has a nice quick car at over 400hp with good intake tempatures , I would be happy with that . I probably dont have much more hp
but its enough for me.
The Holsets are not the most modern turbo but are cheap and work for me.
Would love some updates Patrick on how the car is comming back together.
Here's my hx35 with t3.82 housing and Hy35 with cerecoated crossover.
At the time of building with so many things being a voyage of discovery - the fact that the turbo was a direct bolt-on was very very appealing. Especially as it let me line everything up on the engine stand so that the exhaust manifolds could be modified in situ.
I’ll be the first to admit that I find the whole turbo selection very confusing but luckily I do have a very good welder/fabricator who can adapt the crossover mount, etc. So - in a nutshell, can you point me in the direction of a suitable turbo that’s not going to break the bank please?
The turbo was originally built by Emanuel Galossen and he told me that the hot side would be restrictive and I could just bolt a bigger one on, scallop the engine mount and modify the flange for the downpipe - thoughts?
100% it is confusing, partly because everyone has their own ideas and very few have done the testing and partly because you have to try more than one, sometimes two or three to find the sweet spot for your car and your use. Fortunately there are others who have shared some very useful data or personal experiences on the 3.0 16v. Particularly Turbo Tim (UK guy) who tried a couple of Garrett turbos at different boost levels, measured back pressure and logged it all. This was extremely useful information he shared. There was also some data Vic (pauerman) shared many years back highlighting the extreme back pressure issues found with the kkk housings, including the (slightly better) turbonetics replica housings. Many others along the way.....those are just two that stand out for me.
On my 3.0 I am running a hybrid I specified and had made (after trying other peoples recipes that didn't work) but I have yet to test it properly and the comp wheel is probably too small for a 3.0 16v and I may yet up size it for my to if I decide it is not enough. The important bit is it is using a t350 turbine wheel albeit housed in the same slightly flawed #10 housing you have. The reason I chose this wheel is because it seems to be the sweet spot between reasonably low back pressure and not being too big/ too laggy. I have yet to test the back pressure on this combination so I cannot comment on that. The plan is to move to a Garrett housing but I am going in incremental steps with this to see the results.
Thom has also had good results with his GTX 3576 firstly on the 8v and then transferred over to the 16v. I am sure the 3.0 16v could make use of the 3582 (same turbine wheel but bigger compressor wheel) but I don't think it is necessary unless you are heading in the 600hp direction. Given Thom is experiencing some serious power from his one, I doubt there is much reason to go bigger than the 3576 for your usage.
I don't know enough about Holsets to recommend one of those.
If it was my car I would probably use the one that turbo Tim used which was the Garrett Stage 5 turbo. They are getting a little hard to source these days but I do know a guy in the UK that can make them up, at least he could when I had mine done a year or two back. This is the one:
The only reason I would choose it over a more modern GTX is that I still have a view that these older compressor wheels are slightly more efficient at the lower boost levels we tend to run than the more modern GTX compressor wheels. Also Tim could have put any turbo on his 3.0 16v and he chose this one. He had the luxury of testing different setups on an engine dyno and there is a lot to be said for that, along with years of experience tuning and mapping high power turbo cars.
So really the choices are the more modern GTX3576, or the slightly antiquated Garrett Stage 5 turbo (0.82....or 0.63 if you find it too laggy with the 0.82). Or find someone who knows their onions when it comes to Holsets.
The reason I wanted to draw this to your attention is because you have a very special engine there and I have seen more than one person map their car, think all is good, head to the track and come back with a broken engine. I have read your thread on PCGB and I would hate that to happen to you. The turbo you have may be fine, but the power figures suggest to me there are one or more big restrictions as you should be closer to 500hp at 18psi. If one of them is the turbo then you will have back pressure issues, which will only increase under track use. You can measure back pressure fairly easily and at least put your mind at rest before you push harder on the car. Knock control or some way to measure/ count/ indicate knock is also important. What ECU are you running?
06-13-2023, 07:55 AM
