testarossa_td

tedwright is just doing his job locking the pop-up headlight thread.-and not a job I would want in a million years. Unfortunately I have seen too many neat and great ideas destroyed by this "charter"
And there are valid reasons behind a few of the points in the charter mentioned, however...

This "sponsor" charter forces out the small business men trying to help us and rewards the larger ones for being able to pay.

Nothing wrong with the sponsors, they have fought long and hard to get where they are and earn enough to sponsor the sight.
No small task in today's economy.

I can't help but think the "logic" behind this forum was for Porsche® specifically 9xx owners(at least in this corner) to come together and ask questions and get answers and not be afraid, and maybe in the process learn a little something. Unless it's purpose is to make tons of money, or something different all-together.

Now being such a centralized place for Porsche® owners(thought to have money you are going to get vendors and people wanting to tap into that and take advantage. However if this was just a forum of, DME relay, TPS, and Vacuum diagrams I imagine it would not go very far. The people here are constantly evolving these cars to better them for themselves and others. And we all learn lessons regardless or whether or not we go that route.

If somebody wants to come along and show us this cool new thing they are building and may ONE DAY want to sell then thanks for clueing us in. If they mention they have other items....then great. I would say we are all adults, but that is not true...but we are all at least 16 or you would not be driving(may be different in Europe and ROTW and not accounting for hardship licenses-of which you should not be driving a Porsche® anyway

Now if they post saying this is for sale come here to get it, and provide no additional tech insight than I could almost understand sinking the thread.

They have still informed us of something we may need or want. And if as adults we choose to follow that cheese, then it is our fault if we get burned.

I think we should save the threadlocking for offensive, and anti social posts(slight ribbing not included-we have a lot of personality on this site) if it has anything to do with Porsche® and we could benefit, then bring it on. You don't have to click on a thread if you don't want to read it, and you sure as heck don't have to respond to a thread if you don't want it.

We are not mindless drones we don't need big brother covering our eyes.

This could just be a swing and a miss, but give em a chance....

Thank you for your time.
And I can take criticism, so feel free to load me up, or just walk on by


And to keep it somewhat on topic.

Events like 944Fest are what keep the love flowing on Rennlist, let us thank all those who work hard for the people and not the bottom dollar. And for the sponsors who know the value of good customer service.

It is your dedication and personal attention that keeps these cars alive and helps others gain the knowledge and fortitude to tackle all the problems that may come their way.

And finally thank you Rennlist. Let's hope you don't get bogged down in rules and regulations and can remain an open forum for all to voice their technical expertise and on occassion their personalities

Ian Carr

I think the head light deal was a bunch of BS. There are no companys in our sponsors list that sells a head light kit that completely changes the front end. I don't even know if there is a company in our list that sells head lights at all. This head light deal did not impact our sponsors, at all! The fact that one man said he was making a head light that is by far one of the nicest looking kits i have seen and then says "yah i might be able to get a couple extra maid" DOES NOT MEAN HE IS GOING TO OPEN UP A FREAKIN COMPANY AND START SELLING THEM. I think rennlist needs to loosen up a bit. Its only forum.

-Ian

ehall

I agree, but it won't matter in say two hors cause this reply won't exist. Hope too see you back soon Testa.

cpt_koolbeenz

I agree!
I think Rennlist should have another "vendor" type status... Some single individuals who are making parts or developing new "stuff" for our cars shouldn't have to pay the $125 a month to be a site sponsor! I don't have $125 a month - NOR will I ever make that selling one or two homemade products on Rennlist! I pay to be a member and support the site...

I am not a "commercial vendor" as John D. puts it in his memo. Nor do I think I should be accused of "commercial solicitation" either. I am not a company and I only offer items to others, so they may improve their cars. I don't offer items on Rennlist to make money! If that were the case, offering "products" on Rennlist would be an extremely poor business venture!

Thats just my $0.02.

John Boggiano

Rennlist has rules.

Everyone who posts on Rennlist is bound by those rules.

Sponsors do not like seeing people selling things on Rennlist, when they themselves have paid for the right to sell things. It really doesn't matter if the item, or something similar, is available from any particular sponsor - the sponsors have paid to support Rennlist and expect (and are entitled to) some priviliges in return. A special 'status'. That 'status' is available to anyone who meets certain criteria.

Rennlist is an enormous creature to run and administer. That burden (and considerable expense) falls almost entirely upon John D. and Jenn. Those two offer a stupendous resource for Porsche enthusiasts which relies, in part, on the members' and sponsors' contributions. These must not be jeopardised.

ehall

Holy crap/ A mod has visited, and Testa hasn't been banned yet!

Jfrahm

Yes, I think it'd be good if a 'microbusiness' could find a way to reach Rennlisters within the rules and without undermining the value that the Sponsors get for their money. An example may be a one-off product that is of great use and value from a 'business' that might just be one person who needs to make a small production run to cover costs. However I'm not sure if it's feasable or something that would not just cause unrest. John D has to keep the readership/membership happy and the bills paid. Sponsorship is more valuable if non-sponsors cannot circumvent the rules and market products here just as well but without the costs. Yes the downside is that the little guy cannot easily enter the market, but that is true in the real world too.

We could also suggest that one-off short run products get sold through a trusted sponsor like Rennbay. Just a thought.

Another option would be another status that would allow for products like vacuum manifolds and wiring kits be sold as a 'hobby' that is not competitive with sponsor's business and not meant to be a big profit center for the seller. The moderators could decide if a given product fits the bill. That's a lot more work for them and naturally, more bad feelings if someone feels they should get to sell their widgets but the mods disagree.

Rennlist is a valuable sales tool and I agree that people who make a decent profit from our membership should pay John D for the use of this medium, but it would be nice if there was still a way for the little guy to play.

-Joel.

John Boggiano

Agreed.

Ian Carr

It is a bunch of bull when some one developes some thing FOR THE GOOD OF THE RENNLIST FORUMS and can not talk about it or say hey i might be able to make a couple for you guys. no he has to pay 125$ so he can let a couple of his online friends get one for x$. While you guys are at it you should close down the for sale forum and the classified because that is selling parts that are not from our sponsors.

The fact is if some one is making one thing and he doesn't have a business in selling it then why should he have to sponsor the web site. I think that part of the 18$ a year member ship should allowed the member to be able to show off what he or she has created and if some one or some people are interested in his creation they should be allow to buy one from him if he wants to sell them. I DO NOT think he or she should have to pay 125$ to let a couple of friends try out a product.

-Ian

mark944turbo

I have a question, about how much does rennlist actually cost to run? I wouldnt have a problem with vendors needing to pay if it wasnt so steep. $125 a month is way too much IMO. Where can all that money go? I have friends with forums (not quite as big as rennlist) and they dont seem to take so much time and money to run as this one supposedly does.

Randy V

Had the person in question simply asked the forum Mod if it would be OK to post about his project, there's a good chance this would have gone a different way.

A little courtesy goes a long way.

Not to mention, the topic that is plainly stuck to the top of this forum - https://rennlist.com/forums/the-abyss/212863-if-you-are-not-a-rennlist-sponsor-and-promote.html

I find it amusing when someone becomes indignant when they are told that the rules apply to them too.

testarossa_td

All those who love Walmart's business model raise their hand!

Yes, we all love the convenience and we all love the variety of products at low low prices, and hey who here would not love to have the money that Walmart's business plan has wrought.....

But look at the big three automakers, and look at what happened to Lamborghini...and the way Porsche® operates(do you think they manufacture all those parts???)

The small business is what makes the whole big business work. And when it starts cutting into profit it is time to take em out! That is business...this is not!

So instead of doing custom graphic arts, I should go and get some clip art and re-sell it??

Rennbay, and all the other great sponsors do what they can to make their products the best, and I don't know if you shop more than one, but they undercut each other all the time.
And I know we have all seen the Back and forth on performance parts!!

There are plenty of people on this list that sell the exact same thing, just through different avenues. You can buy stuff directly from the mfr or you can go to Paragon because you trust their customer service.

And who says that Paragon or any other company might not see a neat item here and approach that small manufacturer, and say, hey we would love to sell your product through us, it is obvious we have a lot of people showing interest in Rennlist. Or lock out a thread and who knows how many great ideas get thrown away! You Rennlist sponsors loose out as well.

The sponsors are here to make money, and they know they are going to have to spend some to make some. Sure that might peeve some of them to see someone sneak something in, but it might also inspire them to create their own version and sell it. Bummer for the small business man, but as someone pointed out, they have the capital to invest in tooling.

We are all here for the Porsche® and to help each other out. At least that is why I am here.

Again, this forum(or so I was led to believe) was for the above reason, not to make anybody rich!...unless I am wrong.

dime1622

then i must say its gotta be all or none. according to what just happened, laust's manifold should have been nixed. and magown publicly selling me his recirc valve a long time ago.

if its not for business purposes, i think it should be ok.

and other threads of guys parting their cars should be locked, because they're selling things.

according to the charter, that is. like i said, if its not for business purposes, it should be ok. like testa said, its wonderful to see the evolution of vehicle development here.

porshhhh951

still none the less the rennlist community at large is what suffers.

This guy was not a vendor...not trying to be one....because he wasent trying to make any profit on this design...and wasent going to mass produce them at all. He just came up with a idea thought "hey maybe other people would want this too" and posted OFFERING to make more if there was intrest at ABSOLUTELY NO financial gain to himself.

You can tell the sponser if they have a problem with that well. Its our forum. No one even makes a headlight kit like that and if anything gives them a chance to steal the idea mass produce it and make money off of it.

This is part of the reason my rennlist membership hasent been re newed. Plain and simple this becoming way to coporate. This is a enthusiast forum for us to enjoy and gtg to talk cars and help one another out. If this is a business I will show myself the door. I spend plenty of money every year on my 951 and yes even pay rennlist due's...but, more and more of this bs is the reason you are loosing memberships.

This guy was NO threat to anyone he was just someone trying to do good for the porsche community and you close him off.

I agree it would have been in better tastes to contact a mod and talk this over before hand....but, wtf if thats the case everytime what happens when a rennlist member trys to make anything new at their own cost with no profit? Members do this all the time and yet they get away with it...but, somehow now its not allowed?I think you got a new mod who is trigger happy and made a very bad judgement call

rennlist is about helping one another for fun. I have shipped out parts/info/ect to boards members at my own cost because I believe thats what rennlist is about. Not coporate people badgering us with more intercooler pipes for 500 bucks!

This is truely bad press for mods of rennlist and truely why people dont renew their memberships.

Sorry bad call on rennlist's part.


I love this board.....I love being here....its a shame that its becoming a place thats run by coporate business instead of the little guy. It didnt used to be that way. Maybe thats just the way it go's. The nature of the beast. Still a sad day for people trying to feel like their are part of a community.

Now we have to ask permission to post things and make sure we dont step on company toes.


Sorry for the rant. I just love this place and it seems to be going to @#$ lately.

User 41221

mark944turbo:

This isn't a flame at you, as I think its a reasonable question to be asked from time to time, just so people are aware of what John and Jenn are doing for us.

I know from pesonal experience that operating a network and paying for the bandwidth to support it is far from cheap (I'm guessing between equipment that needs to be maintained/upgraded and LEC costs alone will be around $100k a year or so, not including a bout a billion hours of admin time needed to keep it running). John D has posted a few times about the operating costs, and I will let him address that if he so chooses or you can search the archives (I would, but I'm lazy! lol) to find some insight into that. Whether or not its co-lo'd with another company or not to share the resources, it still takes X # of dollars to support this site, and John has given that to us freely. For him to request that certain rules be followed is his perrogative and I am positive its not being done to "maximize profits".

I, too, like following the product development threads that are undertaken by non-business running Rennlisters and hope that the charter gives enough latitude that it will encourage such activities. I also have bought and sold parts off of Rennlist on a regular basis, not as a part of a business plan but as a way to get both support my hobby and to help others out over the years. I have also sent people parts for free (and no, that doesn't mean I am giving away my LSD tranny! lol), and had others offer me their parts for free on a regular enough basis to believe that the overall character of Rennlist is not "commercial" in nature. I didn't follow what happened on the closed thread in question that prompted this thread, so I can't say anything about it except that our moderators are doing a thankless job for free and that I believe that they are only acting in what they believe to be the best interest of Rennlist. Lets give them some credit too, please.

One final note: I am listed as a "Sponsor" of Rennlist due to my activites trying to promote Rennlist, not because of any commercial concerns. The only "product" I have to sell is "Rennlist".

Regards,