SeanR

Some have not paid much attention.

333pg333

The guy in the forum is the editor in chief, he runs the mag.

The guy that wrote the article has not posted here.

Getting the details correct helps make you look less stupid.

porshhhh951

lart951

I am not, 928's are not only slow but extremely super ultra freaking uber FUGLY

333pg333

I only feel like defending the 951 when it's unfairly attacked. This article wasn't an attack but nor was it quite fair in my mind. It was subjective and that's why the author chose the car that he did. No harm no foul.
For some reason when I say I like the GTS and would own one, you don't seem to read this? Not sure why? I'm a fan of my car and others like it. I also like many different cars, and music and surfing and good food and intelligent movies and blah blah blah.....so I'm fine with my view on the world. I'm pretty broad minded too.

Lorax

Except you lart, of course.

sick 'em!

stout

A) I am not the author; B) I am a fan of (almost) all Porsches, and happen to like 928s quite a bit. However, best-handling front-engined Porsche I have been in was a tweaked 951; and C) I happen to think comparisons that are always apples to apples are often really, uh, boring. Also, I can't tell you how often I've been around two TOTALLY different cars in a non-comparison environment that beautifully highlighted the good and bad points of one another. So juxtapositions that are close enough, or ones someone might actually cross-shop off the marketing artist's radar (read: the true enthusiast market), are even more interesting and more enlightening.

I think Excellence readers, and, indeed, most Porsche enthusiasts, are smart enough to take a more complex question, get some (hopefully) good impressions and observations, and enjoy digesting it and then thinking about it from their own perspective. It's why I read the work of others. I think the benchmark in this regard remains Evo, with Driver's Republic coming up big of late. Even when I don't agree with their conclusions, I respect them because their road test comparisons are usually very well laid out and the testers give me good, in-depth impressions and observations -- enough for me to reinforce or challenge my own personal "pick." Or, in some cases, change my thinking as I weigh all that against the fact that I didn't DO what those testers/writers did. Or not.

It will be a sad day when magazines still willing to tell readers what they might not like to hear are no longer with us.

pete

P.S. Finally, I always love all of the theories as to our biases around here. Here's the reality this time: I had no preference between the two for a winner, and was genuinely curious to see which car Zach would pick (I don't always agree with him, but I do respect him). Therefore, I resisted the temptation to skip to the end as I edited the piece. I thought he handled the story very well, frankly, and very fairly.

333pg333

Stupid. Hmm that's nice. I read that Pete was the author. My mistake. It seemed like he had posted in your forums and was a fan of the 928 prior to writing the article. Again, my mistake. Nevertheless, whoever wrote the article was always going to pick the 928 over the 951. That's not really important. My only feeling is that as many of the 928 guys haven't even been in a 951 let alone a well sorted one, they're missing out on something they might be very surprised by.
Stupid??...nice one chum.

SeanR

That was pretty harsh, my apologies.

333pg333

My apologies. I thought you were the author. I never said it was a bad article either. It was pretty well rounded out showing sides of both cars. To repeat ad nauseum, find a decent condition S4 5 speed and I bet it will cost at least $5k more than a similar condition 951, spend the difference and see what happens. Just a theory.

stout

No worries!

As to the $5k spread, I just don't see it as that big a deal. A bigger deal is the 17s on the 928. But they were addressed in the text, and a smart reader might note that the 928 on 16s might have been hurt enough in the handling sweepstakes to tip the balance towards the 951, which doesn't NEED 17s. Then again, wheels and tires are a bolt-on fix -- unlike the slippery slope that is suspension/engine/brake upgrades.

But my main thing with bringing up the $5k question is this: when I went looking for a second Porsche, it was 968 or 911 SC/Carrera 3.2 or Boxster. While the money mattered, it didn't rule the decision. Several things did. Chief among them was the inherent goodness of each possibility, and availability. I ended up with a really nice 911 SC for a bit more than I would have spent for a nice 968 M030 (couldn't find a good one at the time). From there I ended up in a new WRX, then a used Boxster. Now I'm in a new GTI. Tell me those three match up on paper. Yet I wouldn't mind reading a well-written, thoughtful comparison of them, even now.

Point is this: I don't care so much about the money so long as it's within a ballpark I can play in. I just want the best drive, the car that "gets" me. Not the fastest, but the one that speaks to me. It's why I'd buy a new Cayman 2.7 over a new Corvette. Or, perhaps, a Cayman S with a few very carefully chosen options, even though the $$ would be higher than the Chevy with two fewer cylinders and a lot less HP. Maybe that's part of why I sold my 200-hp 911 and kept my 90-hp 914, and am now spending "911 money" on it. Again. It certainly isn't what most people would do. But then, most people didn't own both at the same time. So, enthusiasts' choices are often complex. Each of us has reasons for the cars we pick, but we all work from limited information. This is why I am so done with "another" boring the-cars-all-match-perfectly-on-paper test. There is a place for those, but I really dig tests written by people I know can address the differences on hand and then make poignant observations.

These days, I'm thinking hard about 2.5-liter flat sixes versus 3.2s and 3.4s -- for a 2100-pound 914. Or, do I go with a seriously trick Type IV (read $15-20k) and keep it under 2000 pounds? Ultimate speed is not the deciding factor. Character and suitability to the chassis matters much more to me. I'm after sizzle and smiles, along with well rounded-ness -- or Porsche-ness, if you will. It's pretty hard to find articles on this, and that's kinda funny because, if there is one thing I've learned, horsepower and specs or even chassis/engine configuration do not decide long-term driving satisfaction like character does. Ever drive an Esprit V8? I'd rather take my econobox GTI for a serious drive. Seriously. I could name several other parallels to this kind of thinking after having spent real time in so many cars. Goodness is hard to see on spec sheets, but you can't miss it when you drive it.

Back to the money. As the article states, nice examples of both of these cars car be had for less than $20,000 today. True, the 951 at that price will probably be nicer than the 928 (it should be mint, IMHO) and I won't argue that it will be easier to find. But, someone who can truly AFFORD a $12-18k 951 probably can (and will) stretch a bit to a 928 if that's where they want to go.

Best,

pete

333pg333

Pete I appreciate your frank and open minded reasoning. I really didn't want to come across as a one eyed 951 head, and re-reading what I've written to date don't think I have, however much some others might believe otherwise.
My continued reference to the monetary difference is valid only because that was the premise of the article. In the US you will get a pretty good condition 951 for under $10k. Add to that some pretty basic mods and it will compete very well against the S4. However, the prospective purchaser is more than likely to chose what they wanted to in the first place. I don't think that anyone buying their 1st Porsche will be looking at a 951 if they have their eye on a 928 and visa versa.
Both good cars and whatever you buy you'll have your share of tears and smiles.

Peckster

I thought it was a great article, well-crafted and an interesting read. In the end the writer didn't say one car was better than the other, just that he preferred the 928, for reasons other than pure performance.

IMO that attitude would typify most 928 owners. People who prefer style over performance. Porsche had them nailed too, which is probably why the vast majority I've seen were automatics.

Luis de Prat

Very valid observation, re the autos. Could you imagine an auto 951? So very different cars. I can totally see someone be smitten by the brawn of the 928 S4, but at the end of the day, it's the high rev'ing, raw feel of the 951 that's in a league of its own.

My opinion is that these are all too different cars to be compared in the first place. Sorry!

SeanR

I have to disagree with this. The performance was the number one thing for me, the fact the 928 looks so damn good was a bonus. Add in the luxury/comfort of the 928, sold. Both of mine are automatics, which I wanted as the traffic in our area is rather large. Now I do want ao 5 speed but it won't be the daily driver either. The wife gave me **** when I got the auto until she drove it and guess what her daily driver is. She sold her Lexus for it, a '90 Auto. She's got a bad habit of calling me and telling me what she's blown the doors off of. (yes, several 951's, she does know the difference)

The auto in these cars is way under rated and a whole lot of fun. I surprised a GTS guy when I burned the tires all the way through 2nd gear.......his comment was "holy ****, and auto can do that?" No mopar power breaking involved. I do drive mine like an stick w/o the clutch though. These transmissions are good.

Again, it's what a person wants in a car. I don't discount the 951, or the 944, hell, my 2nd Porsche love was my fathers 931. (1st was a '78 SC)

Darwantae951

Please don't tell me you think the 928 is pretty?...

Can I still come over Tuesday now?



(P.S. I love the 928, I'm just messin')