CPR

Bill,
Have you given though to running a BatCap in the rear and leaving the car battery in the front tray? IMO, it is the only way to go.

The BatCap is a smaller deep cell/cycle battery with a built in Capacitor. It fits snugly in either the left or right rear well. Creates no adverse draw/effect on your curret battery and charging system... and, due the regulatory effect of the built in Cap, mainatins a stable electrical output for your system.

Kinetics makes a really good one for around $190.00

billthe3

No, I actually hadn't. The main reason I've got the battery in the back currently was because I bought an optima red top that wouldn't fit under the hood, so I went ahead and moved it to the back. The stereo was sort of an afterthought after I put the optima in.

Chris White

You guys crack me up sometimes….
Everybody (almost) is quick to jump on some old guy with what seems like a nontechnical comment.
It turns out that fine copper wire will do an excellent job wicking up moisture (and therefore corrosion). Unless the wires are sealed very well they will literally suck up the moisture and corrode internally. As they corrode the resistance goes up adding localized heat….which helps to accelerate the corrosion.
I have seen corrosion wick up over a foot inside the insulation – the finer the strands the more it wicks and the faster it corrodes.
Keep in mind that the old guy (Sam) was talking about ‘regular’ cars that get driven through rain, snow, slush and salt, not our babied ‘collector’ cars.

KuHL 951

I agree with Chris and I do this for a living. Unless a cable is sealed at each end it will corrode when exposed to the elements...it's that simple. Here at work we buy power cable by the ton for huge 88K HP pumps, welders, and 120T overhead cranes. We have had very good luck with Radaflex TPE welding cable. It has held up well to oils, high temps, and UV/water exposure. It has been more durable than the neoprene derivatives or other rubber based insulations so far.

Any cable exposed to the elements should be sealed completely with a mastic-lined heat-shrink tube to prevent wicking and swelling from corrosion buildup. If high temps are a concern near the exhaust use a firesleeve or heat wrap held on with the heat shrink. I have to laugh sometimes at all the angst over the perfect cable for automotive use when just about anything is better than the OE cable used. Remember it's just a Porsche 951, not the freaking Space Shuttle.

Radaflex

Good Cable Source

eniac

I have used 2ga. welding wire on many of my cars and have had no adverse effects whatsoever.

First the thing about current...if your car is somehow putting more current through the battery cables then an high amp arc welder, well please come to Michigan and turn on your headlights. We need some of this snow melted.

Second about corrosion. Yes this wire is certainly more vulnerable to breaking down the tiny strands, arcing and corroding. However with proper installation, corrosion should not be an issue. I never use crimp connectors, all of mine are soldered on. My technique is to put the connector or battery end in a vice then heat it with a torch to partially fill the hole with a clean pool of solder, stick the cable in and let it cool. This completely eliminates any loose fine strands that could arc. I then seal the entire end with a high quality shrink tube(the thick stuff that has some sort of glue on the inside to make a watertight seal).

Third thing about the heat. Very high quality welding cable can with stand any heat the engine will throw off provided you use some common sense and don't clamp the cable directly to the crossover pipe. I once had a cable clamp fail on a 500 chevy V8 engine I had, the cable fell onto one of the headers and it did burn through over time like any cable would have. The thing that impressed me was that only the part that actually touched the header burnt. 1" either side of that section was perfectly fine. I can't say any OEM wire would have held up that well.

I did a battery relocation on a friends car using this same method and supplies over 10 years ago. He has since sold the car to another who drive it year round in Michigan. The same cable running from the front to the back of the car underneath and exposed to all elements is still in place with no issues.

Here's the facts:
If you do it right it's wonderfull stuff.
If you do it wrong it can be a nightmare.
Two Guys Garage is a typical American TV show...where seeing some part branded as Nascar MUST mean it's the best item ever made and people who buy brand name "perfomance parts" just to say they modded thier car. Hmm I wonder who sponsors shows like that and what parts they "recommend". Obviously no welding cable suppliers are.

User 41221

Just a passing comment about Dan Wray and his cable build. He was way over the top on the design of his product and designed them to meet MIL Spec. He and I talked quite a bit about them while he was putting them together, and I thought he was crazy for going as far as he did and teased him about it (and then he called me a "slacker"! lol). He looked at things like ampacity, oxidation content of the copper, heat rating, air dielectric of the sheathing, etc... Trust me, if you have them on your car, you have NOTHING to worry about for about 15 to 20 years. Like all products, Dan couldn't beat the sands of time, but he built the best that he could, and its very very good.

The ends of the cables were soldered and sealed before the compression crimp, and are impervious to moisture. The insulation is heat and oil resistant. The fuse protection is WAY over the top.

Dan was a personal friend of mine, and I miss him. We were VERY lucky to have someone like him design a product for our cars, and while I have seen several "pretenders" step up to carry on his work (and I appreciate your efforts!), its not the same thing. If you have a set of Ice Shark cables, you have something very special on your car.

Regards,

Chris White

Yep, Dan did nice work and I wouldn't worry about his product. Definalty better than stock!

VWaddict

Copper is a better conductor than gold.

The ONLY reason that Gold is used ANYWHERE as a conductor is where conductors must be exposed to air contact, such as connection points. Since Gold is basically a noble metal (and copper is not) then it won't tarnish like copper does. (Copper oxide is a LOUSY conductor... in fact it's classed as a semiconductor.)

The only common metal which conducts significantly (about 7%) better than copper is Silver... NOT Gold.

Battery cables are a proposition which requires some care. -Not from the viewpoint of any electrical property so much as the fact that there are corrosive gases involved. The insulation is therefore asked to serve not only the task of keeping the conductive core electrically separated from adjacent conductive elements, but also to prevent the ingress of gases to the conductive copper core. -ANY exposed copper conductor run close to a battery terminal will steadily corrode, due to the corrosive gases which acculumate there. For that reason, it's an excellent thing if you make sure that you use an insulator which is non-reactive with Sulphuric/muriatic acid.

Many cheap welding cables may use some variation on a natural rubber insulator, which can dry out with heat-cycling, and as a result will crack, exposing the copper core to gases in their immediate environment. -And since welding cables are mega-stranded in order to be flexible (a valuable property in welding) then the super-high surface-area-to-conductor-thickness-ratio means that the corrosion can kill the conduction properties VERY quickly indeed.


... So that's where the argument comes from where people say "don't just use welding cable and think that it'll be okay just because it can carry current".

However, that does NOT imply that ALL welding cables are therefore automatically to be avoided. -It is -for example- NO reason at all why a welding cable which has an acid-immune insulation (for example a suitable synthetic, or thermoplastic insulation) then there's NO way for the corrosive gas to attack the conductor, apart from the very end where the conductor meets the battery connection terminal... and if the connection is hermetically sealed, by the use of glue-lined heat-shrink tubing for example- then the whole thing becomes essentially impregnable to battery outgassing, and eminently suitable for the task.

This is unfortunately one of those issues where someone can take something to heart as a "fact" and propagate it when it's not actually appropriate.

Basically just because SOME welding cables are unsuitable, does NOT imply that all cables rated to carry welding-capable currents are unsuitable.

Dan was a smart guy. -I don't own any of his product, but I would be surprised if he didn't know all of this... I believe that he knew more than I do on the subject, so I wouldn't be worried. -Ask anyone who's had their harnesses installed for a year or three... -Do they see ANY signs of insulation cracking or perishing close to the battery, or does it look to be in near-perfect, original condition? -If they report the latter, then there's your answer.

Keith

VWaddict

Ah, I posted the above before realizing that much of what I was thinking had been covered by Patrick (in the pages which I didn't notice!) -I'm essentially in full agreement with Patrick's take on the matter.

It sounds to me as though you're on rather the wrong track about your noise issues...

For one thing, shielded cable addresses electrostatic interference, NOT electromagnetic interference. -Also, what would you use to shield the positive conductor even if it WERE to be 'noisy'? 'Ground' in the case of these cars is only the other terminal of the supply (battery in this case) and there is no reason why that either one should be 'quieter' than the other.

My guess is that you have voltage modulation issues; either at the ground potential or some other supposedly 'fixed' reference point, but without a scope and a current probe, it's pure speculation on my part. -Either way, I'd say that shielding the positive conductor will do nothing for you.

Keith

CPR

The interference you are experiencing is most likely related to the proximity of the SIGNAL cables to the power supply for the amps. YOU MUST isolate the RCA cables a minimum of 12" from any high load power source feeder wires. Especially one that demand draws (e.g. amplifiers). Seperate these and there is a 95% chance you audio hum/interference goes away.

Tom M'Guinn

Actually, Lincoln Electric is a bid sponsor of the show. Go figure.

Re soldering, don't you get a cold solder joint if you put a cold wire into melted solder and wait for it to cool?

billthe3

What is the difference between electrostatic and electromagnetic interference? I was thinking they were essentially the same thing, in that they both are a wire picking up stray signals due to movement of some sort in a nearby device - either a magnet flying around or the movement of electrons through a cable?


Yeah, its just a matter of getting the wires farther apart and then the noise goes away. Its not as bad as it once was (when I stupidly ran the wires next to each other), but the pitch still varies with the engine rpm (caused by either the varying alternator output at different rpms or the ignition system, I'm assuming), so its just a matter of getting enough distance between the two. I just have to figure out how I should re-route them so that they still fit under the carpet...

Here's another issue though, since we're on the topic: when I have my aem wideband hooked up and sitting underneath the radio head unit I get a really annoying constant high pitch noise in the stereo. It was suggested that I run a specific ground from the chassis of the head unit - would that make any sense? I'm hoping I won't have to move the gauge because I don't want to figure out where the hell else to put it.

Randy_J

Just came across this thread and yes, Dan was a very special guy and his IceShark cables are fantastic. I've had a set in my 951S for a few years and they still look and feel brand new. I was so pleased with the first set that I got another and installed those in my 968 Cab. No issues at all with the Iceshark cables and they were much better than the OEM sets I removed from both cars.

86 951 Driver

So is there a ground kit like Icesharks that is being produced anymore? I know the IceShark kits haven't been sold for years. I had the ground kit on my 924S and it seems to help. Would like to get one for my 944 turbo

Randy_J

Don't know about the alternator and ground cables, but Rennbay has the headlight / relay kits at a decent price: http://www.rennbay.com/porsche-944-h...ess-p-111.html

also a post https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-...ble-specs.html that might shed light on availability.

Good luck - these are awesome cables.

Found a recent post from Robby who took over from Dan on these cables https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...excellent.html

Looks like the prices have come down a little with volume purchasing for the parts - on4/13/10 Robby wrote:
Cost for a complete kit is now $280- includes S&H, anywhere in cont US- this means $270 + S&H anywhere else. The complete kit includes:

One 1awg main [+] battery to starter (EF)
One 4awg main [+] alternator to starter (EF/F)
One 4awg supplemental [+] from battery to fuse box (EF/F)
One 1awg (2-pc) main [-] battery to ground- (EF on longer)
One 4awg supplemental ground (EF)
Miscellaneous Hardware, etc...

EF = cable is covered w/ExFlex
F = fuse
The main cables that attach at battery have new military spec clamps...