944J

i mean really this is a big problem on this board, every time i try to delve into something creative or learn something that isnt the way the "cool kids" do it i get slammed by someone or a group, then why i defend myself i get in trouble with the "teacher" even though i'm a paying member as well.

RolexNJ

I made my post. If you need a crystal clear explanation, PM me. I read your old postings.

Rogue_Ant

Just because you are not gaining any knowledge, does not mean that we haven't packaged it up, and dropped it off at your front door...

fast951

The best way to get power out of a 951 is to do your homework!!!!! This post is not technical in nature, but hopefully will save you lots of money and headache. People have given you some good ideas, some have given you some terrible advise (not on purpose of course).

Be reasonable with your requirements (HP, life span, reliability, intended purpose,..) now decide if you are building it yourself or you want a expert to do the work. A expert will not share his technical secrets on a public forum!
If you are building it yourself, the chances are you will not be asking a forum for advise. If you are not building the engine yourself, trust a well known builder like Chris White on this board.

If you are having someone build the engine make sure you know who you are dealing with. If you do not, you will end up with lots of money spent and nothing to show. Do you want a head and cam that grenade, a engine that comes apart, a engine management that does not work as promised, a replacement engine that sits for over a year and does not get done while you wait and continue to pay the big $$$? Of course, you do not hear these horror stories from the guy that is going through the nightmare, maybe he'll jump in and share the horror stories, but I doubt it!!

There has been all sort of empty promises and shattered dreams. Know what you are doing and who you trust or you will join the poor soul that is still waiting for his engine! Be careful who you listen to and ask for "actual well proven records". Don't settle for a recommendation from someone that has no actual proof of what he is recommending. Recommendation about a product or a person from someone on the forum that has no idea what he's talking about can cost you plenty. It's interesting, but not surprising, how people make recommendations based on 0 facts. Be careful not to get involved with someone that is yet to build a 400hp engine, yet will promise you a 700-800hp engine.

A 951 engine can make serious power, it will not be easy and will not be cheap. It's always nice to toss ideas around, just be careful what you wish for.

spoolin51

Look, its obvious you've got a lot to learn. Search is your friend
I've noticed you like to compare apples to oranges. If you havent learned the fundamental differences then once again, Search is your friend. I'm not bashing you, I just want you to realize you own a Porsche and not an Audi.
I dont know how old you are, but there is a saying that usually everyone learns from experience; "You get what you pay for" You will find this to be very true.
A 10k 500hp 951 will generally be less reliable than a 20k 500hp 951.
Remember, everything must run in coordination.
I wish you the best of luck.
My $0.02

944J

thanks for the reply, so what are the things that make the 944 engine so expensive to get to 600whp but the audi or mitsubishi 5 and 4 cylinder engines so cheap to get to 700 to over 1000 whp?

and how can we get past the super expensive obstacles? you seem to be an expert maybe you can shed some light on it since that is the topic of this discussion...

i'm looking forward to some real facts, not just advice on how to shop.

V2Rocket

the simple answer is that the 944 engine has many very very nice strong parts but other things make it a lump of crap. the aluminum engine block is nice for lightness but the aluminum cylinders, even with the alusil liners, are pretty delicate when compared to a steel sleeve which most of the 'big power' engines have, kind of like how the audi is an iron block tank.

the head design on a 944 8v is far from optimal; it makes for some odd characteristics for the flame front once things are ignited and you have to take that into account when you are building and tuning. a pent-roof aluminum cylinder head like most 4v/cyl engines now have is much much more ideal which is why if you really want to start making power on a turbo 944 use the 16v engines.

one of my other cars is a 1996 infiniti q45. the early 90s were when fuel injection and stuff were really starting to get developed; they were pretty crude in the 80s (even our motronic). my q45 has an aluminum 4.5L 32v V8 with pent-roof heads that makes 310hp/300tq. (in 1996 a corvette with 5.7L made only 330hp). this is largely due to the superior design of the head, not because it revs high (6300rpm redline iirc).

the open deck as has been discussed allows the entire cylinders to flex somewhat which can be catastrophic if its too much. a closed deck is a way to solve this though.

the simple fact of the matter, with engine building, suspension mods, brakes, whatever you want to do to the 944, is that there simply is not enough of a market for performance parts. something like 160000 944s of any variety were ever built, including 944, 944S, 951, 951S, and 944S2. over the years that number has dropped enormously. the reason that a turbo kit to make 300whp for a k20 honda motor, aside from the stratospheric efficiency of those engines compared to our brick, can be sold cheaply is because there are a million billion of those engines out there and variants that can share parts. the more of a car there are the more potential there is for owners to want to modify it, and sheer volume of demand makes more and more options available which drives prices down. us 944 guys have like 4 vendors that do big performance stuff. vitesse, lindsey, cep, and speedforce. (sorry if i left you out). most others are aesthetic type stuff. they are largely on their own for developing new products and the R/D on things on a small-production engine takes alot of time and money which is then passed on to the customer.

944J

come on guys, i read every month in the car magazines and all over the internet about civics, and mitsubishis, and audi's and such getting 600, 700, 800, 1200 whp... what makes their engine's so special and the 944 porsche so "weak" and outlandishly expensive?

i think i might have to take a 944 engine to a honda builder or a audi builder and see what they can do with it, maybe learn some new "secrets".

Chris White

OK, here is some info for your quest for knowledge –
There is dyno queen horsepower and there is usable track horsepower.
Porsche, by its heritage and design is about track horsepower. The engines are designed around the concept of running at full power for an extended duration – like 24 hours in some cases. Dyno queens run for 24 seconds. Anymore and they will be reduced to a pile of misshapen parts.

One of the reason that the 944 engines don’t put out the dyno HP numbers is that the crank and rods are seriously over built to last – as a result they are too heavy to run 8k+ rpm. You could lighten the crap out of the 944 parts and drop in a huge cam to make some high RPM power, but then you would have long term reliability issues.
If you want to know how to make a 944 based dyno queen I can’t (won’t) help you with that, to me that is just a waste of time, money and effort. All you get is bragging rights for the numbers on a slip of paper.

So, if you are wondering why the 944 builders aren’t making similar HP to the other imports is simply because we are playing a different game. I can’t tell you how many tweaked Supras, Hondas and even WRXs have come to Watkins Glen with big HP numbers on paper only to leave broken or worn out by the end of the first day.

Whisper

This may come off as somewhat snide, but the 944 engine *is* the weakness.

That's not to say that you can't do *anything* with it, but at the end of the day, it's a four-cylinder, 2.5 liter engine, and it was designed decades ago.

With enough expertise and folding-green-tool, one can coax considerable power from it, yes, but it's somewhat akin to building a model ship inside a bottle... limiting yourself to show expertise and give yourself a challenge.

From the standpoint of getting the most yield for your money, the ls1 swap truly has a lot to recommend it. It can be viewed as inelegant, the easy way out, a bastardization, or "ghetto". But the result is a pleasure to drive, and quite reliable.

944J

ok this makes sense, but 928 motorsport does steel sleeves for the 928 and 944 but their race car that looks like NASA built it only has around 500whp.

in today's age you have to have 1000whp to be competitive and get noticed.

i watched supercars exposed as a custom 911 twin turbo sleeper beat a gemballa tuned 911 gt2, it was something like 1200hp vs 600hp

from what ive readin the road racing car world there are tons of 1000hp cars out there and its the norm... track racing might be different, i dont really know?

is the 16v s2 or 968 head up to standards though? can it be improved on?

i did a search for people who have closed their deckon the 944 and havnt found one yet... can you direct me to documented builds like this?

ive seen a 928 who poured a cement substance in the block, but this was years ago...

i agree here...

thats why if we want to advance past 300 whp as the average maximum that a normal person can put in their 944 turbo then we need to start to take lessons from the inovation and experimenting thats going in outside the porsche and 944 community, in my opinion.

i think that a good goal, instead of swaping engines, would be to build a 944 engine that can take 30-40psi. how much hp/tq are we looking at there?

944J

the audi i5 was designed decades ago too and can make 450whp out of the junkyard with a few mods from what i read from experts who have done it.

V2Rocket

nascar teams have basically infinite budgets. yet they all are around 800HP. same with formula one cars. current F1 runs around 800HP NA from a 2.4L v8 but it has to sit at 19000rpm to get there. even in the turbo age, yes they got 1000hp/L but they were running something like 75psi boost.

i think it would be a mistake to try to relate anything about a 997 turbo or GT2 engine to the comparative dinosaurs we have in our cars or the audi.


there is no way to tell you definitively how much power you could make. however i will roughly estimate, that without exacting tuning and preparation, you will make 0hp/tq after the first time you touch the go pedal. but you will have a tremendous pile of scrap metal to sweep up.

944J

this contradicts what you are saying...

http://www.80tq.com/EngineDamage.html

Whisper

Sure, and I did not say that such a thing was not possible.

There are some high-hp 951s out there, clean, pristine, and built and maintained by those far more knowledgeable than I.

But you missed my point. Which was:

What do YOU want? Do you want to challenge yourself to get the most you can out of the 944 engine? Or do you want to get the most you can out of the 944?

Because if it's the second, then the ls1 swap is the way to go. It's cheapER (not cheap if you do it right), it's reliable, it's got lots of nice low-end torque, it loves the 951 gearset, and the first thirty seconds, I drove one, I was floored.

https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-...ml#post6494219