cobalt

Since the market has gone so crazy and poor quality product is flooding the markets from overseas with used car dealers trying to bank in on the market I think it is time to make a list of used car sellers you have witnessed first hand practices that are downright misleading. I am not posting these names to bash or hurt anyone's business but I am posting what I have seen first hand and what I think you should be aware of. I carefully review the sellers comments against the product sold and an understanding of their knowledge vs comments made. If I find the description doesn't remotely match the vehicle and is what I consider not just a mistake but an act of deception to sell a car that isn't as represented, I will post. I encourage others to do the same but please only do so if you are 1000% sure the act was unscrupulous and can be proven.

BaT will no longer let me post questions of some of their key sellers as I guess they are concerned they will lose their listings. I am only interested in promoting transparency. I am also not saying that the car sold are bad cars in any way just not as represented. So something like "all original paint" only to find it has clear and obvious tape lines and meter readings that are high that a novice can see is not the case. This is to weed out the unscrupulous use car dealers only. No private sellers please. I also want to be clear that this is to point out clear misrepresentation so try to keep the comments to the facts at hand.

I will put BaT as #1 only because they are promoting deception by these sellers.

BaT
Bill Noon
Symbolic_Interntaional
Sam_RSM
1600 Veloce

There are others but I am just going based on recent sales I have seen up close recently. Please if you know something about a car that has recently sold and not to yourself keep it clean and try not to reference the actual car as someone may have overpaid for what they got and we don't need to make their car a point of reference. So add to the list with extreme prejudice making sure you have your facts straight and can prove what you are saying. Be helpful but be kind.

In each case not only have I seen the cars up close and personal but reviewed the ad and listing in detail. I have photos of each instance and in some cases they picked the only section of a panel to meter as the rest read 50% higher and was clearly bondo. Not one of the cars and there were multiples by some sellers was remotely close to as advertised. Original paint yielded paint lines so apparent a grade school kid could see it. Each car will result in huge repair bills that could equal as much as 50% of the buy in on a car that sold for a premium based on the seller's comments, crafty photography and ra ra's commenting on how great the car is when clearly they have no clue. It wouldn't be so bad but when confronted these sellers made up stories about werks special wishes way of doing things that were outright fictitious and fraudulent.

Hopefully this will help someone looking. I am not saying do not buy from these people. That is up to you. At a minimum I would go into this with eyes wide open and the understanding that there are more likely to be issues undisclosed than not and don't trust a word they say or write.

forbiddenbeat

I think this is a great idea. I can't find the thread but someone on here recently bought a red 964 from BaT that looked great in photos but had terrible orange peel paint when they went to pick it up. Buyer did not end up taking it, seller seemed to know it was a misleading listing. I think it was a dealer selling IIRC.

darylbowden

I love this idea.

I have no way of proving this, but I worry there is a lot of unscrupulous activity on BaT. I don't think BaT is actively involved themselves, but they don't mind being the beneficiary.

I think it falls into a few categories:

• Money laundering - they literally had to do a press release this week about a VW GTI that sold so far above market value, it prompted an investigation. I think it's highly likely that they've been used for this multiple times.
• Shill bidding. There are times when the bidding just makes no sense and comes from people who have a history of making large increment bids, but never past the reserve, while never winning a single car. That is a strange pattern to me.
• Shill commenters. There are some auctions where you have "informed" bidders just talking up how great this car is, etc and it's clear that either a) the commenter has no idea what they are talking about or b) there is no attempt at any substance behind their gleeful comments.
• Too close to some of the sellers. There are a handful of sellers who make up a huge chunk of their overall sales. It seems that they give lots of preferential treatment to those sellers and encourage a large stream of cars in. There are some (mentioned above) who at one point represented pretty strong cars and as they have tried to keep their volume up, the quality of represented cars has fallen, but their reputations within the walls of BaT are still glistening.

The problem as I see it is - BAT is a market maker. Just like someone who is doing the same in the stock market, they are essentially doing it with the classic and rare car market. If they prioritize profits above all else, that market is driving ALL cars up, whether they deserve it or not. Doing so has created this new asset class of investment vehicles that really aren't "investment grade" and is taking lots of drivers cars off the road, which ruins the long term viability of our hobby.

Lastly, I actually have purchased 2 cars from BAT. One of those was very misrepresented by the seller. I spoke to BAT and told them the story, provided evidence, etc and all I wanted from them was to reconsider letting this person sell through their site and they basically told me to kick rocks. They are not incentivized to have quality, they are incentivized to prioritize quantity over all else given the way they charge their fees.

Goughary

You are going to end up with no one to buy a car from...

Oh yes, we already can't find someone reselling a car that we can trust...dammmmm

We need a second thread to balance:
"Resellers of cars we seem to be able to trust"

Ken D

These are (literally) used car salesmen - like Larry Dallas



It would be easier to name the trustworthy ones, the list should be in the single digits.

spartansix

This is not entirely surprising, but it is pretty distressing, as comments from knowledgeable enthusiasts are one of the value adds of the BaT process.
You would think BaT wouldn't care about losing a few sellers seeing as there are already so many cars applying that they turn away enough to supply Cars & Bids and Pcarmarket. Instead, BaT should be much more worried about losing the confidence of buyers.

2swoosh

i hoped BAT refunded his bidding money since he didn't buy the car

0luke1

I bought one from BaT. Not doing it again unless I can see the car in person. The seller omitted the rust starting in the typical spots under the window, but the car was worth what I paid.

What bothers me about as much as sellers you can’t trust are the three PPIs I paid for which were worthless. One was so bad I just didn’t buy the car because I kept asking questions and couldn’t get answers. One was both blatantly deceptive and incompetent. The only Porsche PPI that was kind of worthwhile was the one where I stood over the mechanic. He would not have found the bad cylinder had I not been there (it would have been worthless if I wasn’t there). The Corvette PPI was dead on, but the car was basically perfect (private seller).

Scott Dunavant

The Website says Bring a Trailer basically cause the POS doesn't run. BAT = "We don't even need disclosures"... we sell POS's that you need a trailer!

brescia917

Im surprised about the 1600veloce seller, I read many comments saying he’s such a good seller, I don’t think he even sells his own cars , all are consignment.

I am in the market for a 964 or a 993 and have been checking out bat, there are about 4-5 sellers that seem to get a lot of these cars most on consignment which is hard to trust because they aren’t really invested or familiar first hand with the cars.

what known bat sellers that get 964 993 do you trust or feel are transparent and thorough with the cars they list there?

Turbo Jonny

Pleasantly surprised to see this thread up and going and long may it continue. In the UK this has been tried a few times recently often concerning dealers selling on consignment and not paying the seller. Many sad stories.Pistonheads had one that was taken down. Porsche Club GB was another. Both were afraid of litigation. I was so annoyed with Porsche Club for having cosy relations with criminal dealers and taking their support with no willingness to help protect their members. https://www.porscheclubgb.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1051861 Only one site 911UK kept a thread going detailing the eventually criminal proceedings and bankruptcy of Specialist Cars of Malton and Gmund cars. I could add some others but like others have said it may be easier to change to a trusted sellers list ?

cobalt

I am glad to see this is getting some traction. Regarding who I would trust? Most used car dealers (I hate to call these people that but that is what they do) of who I know of and trust don't sell on BaT and have a long list of clients that would gladly buy their cars sight unseen. I disagree with this approach even from the best. I always feel a proper PPI should be done prior to a purchase. My wife says I have a hard time letting go of stuff so I don't sell many cars but when I do I will not do so unless the buyer has an independent look it over. Sadly finding anyone to do PPI's is getting tougher because of the litigious society we live in. I have had some of the more well known shops do PPI's for me years ago and they missed things as well so it isn't always perfect. But what was overlooked wasn't an act of deceit on anyone's part, this can happen. You are spending a few hundred for time they aren't making money on. However, better that then the perfect storm they might end up with when they don't.

I think a checklist of what should be inspected and how, is worth making up and attaching. I will try to get to it but have both my engine jobs getting closer to completion. If anyone wants to start or we can discuss it here until we make up a checklist that would be helpful. I have the Porsche checklist I will try to find and start with that. Although a lot of it focuses on the newer cars. As I am typing this I am thinking this would make a great workshop for our local PCA members. Might be worth mentioning to your local PCA region.

The reason I added 1600 Veloce to the list is I had asked several questions and got responses that skirted the question. It was by happenstance I saw the car in person and when I checked the questions I had were clearly warranted. Is it possible they didn't know? Possibly but I highly doubt it.

CVCC is one of the only sellers I have seen who came out on his listing telling the facts about a car he was selling and tried to impress upon the buyers it wasn't a good car and still someone overbid for it. Some people just can't be helped. LOL

2swoosh

I got burned many times buying sight unseen and lesson learned. Cars&Bids seems upcoming as Doug Demuro (owner) seems to personally test drive some of the cars on his auction site. He seems to be a real passionate car guy and an avid Porsche lover. He recently scored his dream car, a CGT.

Metal Guru

This is an age old problem in the used car market. Buying cars long distance has made it worse.
I'd rather not own something than buy a mis-represented piece of junk and have that bitterness linger on for God knows how long.
If there's no one to buy a car from, so be it.
Fact of the matter is that there are a handful of good dealers out there. Nonetheless, a prospective buyer better get eyeballs on the car he's planning to buy. If someone has to be hired to inspect a car, that's the cost of doing business.

darylbowden

The frustrating part for me at least is that when BaT started out (the auction portion) and before there were professional BAT dealers, there was a lot of good commentary, helpful advice, hard questions, etc that helped make the prospect of buying a car across the country more palatable. Plus, back in those days, you were likely to pay slightly less (or more than slightly less) for an example than you would at a local dealer, where you could lay eyes on it yourself. Because of that, you also had a little more wiggle room if a car wasn't represented 100% properly.

But now the comment sections are far different. I don't know whether it is BAT banning people who ask the hard questions or if it's the knowledgeable folks not wanting to deal with the commentariat there anymore, but that kind of dialog is just missing now, only to be replaced with glowing things to say about every car that graces the site (there is a 16k mile 993 turbo in yellow currently where people are calling it a "grail" car - no, it isn't. It's a normal turbo in a decent color combo, with low miles, and now they're trying to pimp it for the second time in 2 years).

It definitely felt like after the investment of Hearst Auto it took a real change. I can say that unless there is a truly special car I *have* to have and there is no other way to get it, I've definitely bought my last car on that site. It's just not worth the risk or the cost for that matter.