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We have a similar issue with E-Type Jaguars where companies like Eagle E-Type's and Evolution E-Type's take a Series 1 car (considerably rarer than a 964) and 'reimagine' it.. I will bow to your knowledge of the 964 as I own a 993 C2 coupe.
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97 Carrera 2 coupe
63 E-Type OTS
62 E-Type FHC
It's all good. I agree and equally sad to see the E-types be chopped up as well as 300SL MB's for these modernized things. I alway liked the E-type and have many friends with them. My first car was a 74 KJ6. The lucas electric just turned me off otherwise I might be restoring those. There is so much to appreciate about what made these cars special that is lost when they try to make them something they aren't.
I like 993's. I just find the 964 to be far less complicated and easier to deal with. I just finished working on a friends 993TT interesting car but I would never trade my 964 turbo for one.
If they did this back in 1990's when white tubs could be purchased I would be singing a different tune.
Well at least you can hum a different tune as Singer have saved 75 964's because their premium creation, the DLS, has a full carbon fiber tub, albeit costing $1.8 million! All sold if you were tempted.
I see Gunther Werks is using 993"s to reimagine the car as a cartoon caricture.
Not a fan of Singers either, but thanks to them I have been able to get a few hard-to-find interior parts (in Marine Blue) from Autobahn.
I always thought though that what Canepa is doing to original 959s is an even more serious sin. Why is there a need to "reimagine" an original 959, with only 300 or so left?
Nobody has to like Singer but this is more than a bit silly.
Originally Posted by cobalt
Coupes were made in total at 27,009 World wide. Only 5,106 were imported to the US and Canada, of those we had seen a min of 50% chopped up for parts, crashed, totalled, exported and the like.
>50% according to?
[QUOTE=cobalt]So at the rate of 3-500 or so a year it won't be long before there are no eligible coupes or targas remaining in the US. Assuming if everyone sells US coupes will be gone in another 3-4 years min and then the remaining are spread out around the planet and how many of those suffered the same fate as the early years here?[\QUOTE]
The video starts by saying they’ve built 250 while in business for over a decade and have orders in for another 450. Where does the 3-500 come from?
[QUOTE=cobalt]It is quite sad that the best car Porsche ever built will be gone soon with very few examples remaining.[\QUOTE]
They will be gone? The best car Porsche ever built?
The exaggerations are a bit excessive even by internet standards.
[QUOTE=-nick;18656539]Nobody has to like Singer but this is more than a bit silly.
>50% according to?
[QUOTE=cobalt]So at the rate of 3-500 or so a year it won't be long before there are no eligible coupes or targas remaining in the US. Assuming if everyone sells US coupes will be gone in another 3-4 years min and then the remaining are spread out around the planet and how many of those suffered the same fate as the early years here?[\QUOTE]
The video starts by saying they’ve built 250 while in business for over a decade and have orders in for another 450. Where does the 3-500 come from?
Originally Posted by cobalt
It is quite sad that the best car Porsche ever built will be gone soon with very few examples remaining.[\QUOTE]
They will be gone? The best car Porsche ever built?
The exaggerations are a bit excessive even by internet standards.
A bit emotional maybe, I agree. The rest is opinion, we all have them. I can own most any Porsche I would want and honestly I always come back to these cars. Appreciate them all from the 901 to the taycan but the 964 will always be my favorite and many I know agree. The 964 fits the bill for me obviously it has its pros and cons and needs some updating but it has its merits. After all it is the basis for these modern reimaginations. All I can say is I am seeing very nice examples in great colors selling for 6 figures heading to Singer. The supply is drying up.
I see a lot of the same cars trading hands and we all watched from the 2000's to not long ago as hundreds of these were being chopped up, turned into dedicated track cars, crashed and just abandoned because they had no value. Not much different than the 914 world. I witnessed hundreds that were parted out and I hate to say I chopped up a few myself. How else could you get used parts before Autobahn? Pelican Forums, as there were a few chopping them up at 3 -4 a week at the peek. So my figures might have some emotion added, but I don't think the're silly.
So considering I see a crash free tub for under $130k maybe a 1:10 good to bad that qualify to go to singer how many can that leave? I am tired of fixing damaged cars. I have been hearing a lot of numbers that don't jive. IMO an attempt to keep the publicity down just like the 65k 964's made the magazines all claim. Sorry I can't trust their numbers. The number I am hearing was higher and they supposedly have another 130+ prepped and in waiting while chopping up 3-4 a week. I assumed the info was true based on the source and a few that said the same who have a place in line. It is possible they all gave me identical false info.
The biggest issue I have is the need for straight tubs only. They are chopping up some amazing cars with so very few nice ones trading hands these days. It is not that difficult to make a cab into a coupe for the money involved. All this great work and something like adding a roof skin is not worth it?
In any case 4 years or 8. The value of mine keep going up but these were much more fun when they weren't such a commodity.
So what everyone is saying is,..... my beautiful 964 Cab will be the only 964 model left un touched by Singer.
Buying trends on 911's and proven to change over the decades.
930's were super hot, then slantnoses, Then C2 Turbo conversions were a huge success. 911's and 964's were left in the dust as everyone switched over to 993's. Then 996's cause 3.6 Turbos to drop to $45,000
Cutting up a 964 for Carbon Fiber is not for me. I've been HotRoding 964's since 1995. I have never taken the 964 body away from a 964. Even If she had a Junk Title. Very Sad Cobalt to see all the 964 body parts. Even rare colors in there.
Dave, Will singer push into 993's before cutting up 964 cabs? Looks like a 3-4 year process. The Trick is .... LOL, Singer Keeps inside Metal jams for their Carbon fiber.
With a 993 Conversion you would need a 911 Inside jam and Aprons. They can't make that happen. He's picky. A raised 993 Trunk and Decklid on a back date won't fly with Singer.
Originally Posted by das76
I don't think they are going to use 964/965 Turbos for the Singer Turbo, considering all the work they do in modifying the cars there is no need to spend the extra $100k to start with a turbo.
Orders booked until end of 2027; that's incredible. Regular version capped at 450 and orders for 250 Turbos already
At the end of the day I'm just not a fan of the back dated look. If I wanted a long hood I'd just get an older car vs a 964 and spend money modifying/fixing it up.
I wonder if that direction is where Singer is going next: becoming an actual manufacturer vs what they are doing now. Or will they move to eating up 993's ?
The Singer 4.0 is built by Ed Pink racing and there are some bespoke parts that I belief are EP’s design. When I did a tour last year I was told they build around 50-60 units per year so it’s not in the 100s of units for the NA 4.0. I also asked about how they felt about the business going to PNA.. the response suggested they are happy as they will continue to build the motors and then PNA rubber stamps removing the liability from EP. Maybe it will change in the future but seeing as Singer are not taking any new orders for NA 4.0’s I am guessing that EP will still be the builder and PNA the distributor.
I say again, Porsche built almost 65,000 964's and Singer, along with Ruf, have converted less than 5% of those. They will run out of customers willing to shell out $500,000 before they run out of donors! Look on the bright side, there is now a huge supply of 964 parts. Would not surprise me if Porsche buys Singer at some point in the future.
I have a Number of shops by me doing 964 back dates along with what I saw this morning. It is not just singer but countless of other backdates being done these days. Here seems to be a new commer. https://tedsonmotors.com/daydream This time it is semi electric. So maybe I am silly but when no more are remaining I hate to say it Scott I will be buying up cabs and converting them to coupes. But not yours it is perfect as is.
I don't see what is wrong with a 964 looking like a 964. Especially the widebody. I too have chopped up my share but the cars I converted still look like and acts like a 964.
Is EP still making motors? I know they are making the last of the 4.0 engines but the new turbo study is theirs as well?
I much prefer a low boost turbo vs a wound out 4.0L If done right it will feel more like an N/A 954 engine with much more power.
Well at least you can hum a different tune as Singer have saved 75 964's because their premium creation, the DLS, has a full carbon fiber tub, albeit costing $1.8 million! All sold if you were tempted.
I see Gunther Werks is using 993"s to reimagine the car as a cartoon caricture.
Yes Singer doesn't build cars like Ruf. They just backdate them or modernize them.
It is my understanding, Guntherwerks is using Targas only for now. They are at least doing some bodywork vs just cutting and grafting. As far as they are going and no seam welding. To me that would be step One.
Cab, coupe or targa I guess. I appreciate these more than the Gen1. I know several in line for one. The cars being chopped up to make theirs I consider criminal but I am sure they will be as nice as the cars they started with. The new going rate for a donor seems to be low 6 figures these days. I especially like their progress payment plan. They can't lose unless they can't find any more to chop up. If I sold my pristine 964 I would insist the buyer sign an agreement not to use it for a backdate.
02-27-2023, 12:43 PM
