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I really don’t care about modifying/updating a car, including racing/tracking it. It’s been an element of Porsche since the inception. I have a problem with backdating a car, it is all about looks…not performance.
I’d love to see a singer 964 that stays a 964….
same for the turbo/wide body the faux impact bumpers at awful rather see a rsr adaptation….
I really don’t care about modifying/updating a car, including racing/tracking it. It’s been an element of Porsche since the inception. I have a problem with backdating a car, it is all about looks…not performance.
I’d love to see a singer 964 that stays a 964….
same for the turbo/wide body the faux impact bumpers at awful rather see a rsr adaptation….
I would love to see a Singer modern twist on the 964 RS3.8. Most of Singer's clientele is most likely older and have had early model air cooleds back in the day - just guessing. For this reason, they would most likely sell more back-dated cars.
I believe there is a trend of long nose values dropping and cars like 3.2s and 964s are on the rise. This trend could end up changing the backdate craze.
On one hand they do appear to have a significant level of detail and quality finish and at least it involves engineering and craftsmanship unlike RWB. On the other, viewing that factory tour it strikes me that they are all starting to look the same and many of the buyers seem more interested in the weave of their fabric finish than anything else
Like some of the replies above I would really like to see them celebrate the 964 design for what it is, rather than the faux-not-quite-backdate look that every single car they've made sports.
From a design perspective one of the things I don't understand is the tach. For all the money and attention to detail, and their motto that "Everything is important" the tach is just a travesty of design and balance. Am I the only one who has noticed this? How did their designers miss this (or design it in the first place)?
Once you see it you can't un-see it; so I'm sorry to rain on any Singer parade. To make matters worse this is the gauge that stares at you in the face every time you drive it! No way I would spend $1m and have to stare at that. I'm going to have a nightmare tonight just because I looked at this again!
Actually, yes; the alignment of the indicator warning signs (and I assume the headlight/high beam indicator) and the crappy little master warning light are pretty terrible. I would not accept that on a 500k-1m car (or whatever they are now).
I never noticed it before, but yah the tach design needs work and it's such an easy fix. Drop the the blinker and Hi-beam indicators down to the 1/min x 1000 area like the original 964, but relocate the 1/min x 1000 below the gauge hand like the singer DLS. CEL and " ! " need to go or at least find a way to balance them symmetrically.
The difficulty of having color gauges is you can't have hidden indicators like most cars have. Well you can but they are very noticeable.
I can't recall a single thread full of the same endless bemoaning with regards to 964's being shamelessly bastardized from roadworthy rarities into lowly track rats.
Yet still the flogging persists.
The difference is the majority of the tubs used to cut up for track cars wouldn't qualify for a singer build. My Blue Meanie project was built off a C4 with accident damage I repaired. Something singer would never do. It will be far faster and much more fun to drive as well. The Singer is built on the tubs of the finest 964's these days. I know of several 6 figure pristine examples being cut up. There are dozens of backdated out there other than singers. I saw at least 15 down at Amelia and they weren't singers.
My Blue meanie won zone concours against some serious competition. The owner of the pristine 73 Rs was pissed. But my car was cleaner and drew a lot more attention. Most everyone thought it was a real RSR. Why they can't offer something like this is beyond me. After following the 4.0 leaving Amelia the other day for 30 miles I was not impressed. It didn't sound all that great and when the wing was deployed just looked off. This with every thing that can be done to a 964 with 600 whp at 2650 pounds half tank is a bastardized track rat? I think not. It will run circles around a singer at a fraction of the cost. It is technically street legal but I don't like driving cars with full roll cages. Yes those are factory RSR Speedlines. All steel factory parts, bumpers, rockers etc. You're going to tell me this being a better performer is worthless vs a million dollar singer. No way.
I've measured many 964's from front to back and compared side to side. Most are off and they drive fine. It's the NON locking diffs that throw the cars off with hard acceleration at 400hp+
I was a salvage builder for 14 years. Singer can to build cars with light tub damage. They cut most of the car away. It's the area below where the suspension mounts and the shock towers.
Front end hits cause the shock towers to rise. Frame pullers just pull forward. They are suppose to pull the tower down and the frame rail forward. Rear suspension damage where the trailing arm gets ripped off is a concern.
I don't think the remaining numbers of surviving 964's are correct. As a salvage builder i saw endless cut up 964's in the 90's WAY before singer started.
Why do you think most are paying $100,000 for them now and importing from Japan.
Scott, I have helped straighten crashed 964 tubs which were beyond most ability to repair. helped section in front and rear clips on several 964's. I few I have seen sell recently. No carfax since it was done without going through insurance. The work was meticulously done and it would take quite the eye to tell if anything was done at all. A good body shop with a celette or decent frame machine can do wonders. Look at the Japanese flachbau that recently sold. That car was wrinkled from head to toe well over a decade ago and the history on that car has been long forgotten. I have seen cars I know had accident damage with no damage to the frame rails but repaired only to be rejected by Singer. Something I wouldn't even be concerned about as a driver. I have one such car now they outwardly rejected and I can't figure out why other than the carfax.
I know of several who have spent well over 6 figures for a donor heading over to be turned into a turbo study build. I find most japanese imports I look at are nice cars but far from what I would call honest. Maybe 2% are what I would consider #2 cars the rest #4-5 at best. Just look pretty with fancy makeup. I wouldn't trust a Japanese import today maybe 4 years ago but not today. What is more mind blowing is the Singer progress payment plan. Second progress payment is $500k. No chances taken by SInger all up front payments. Look at the pics of the parts sold off by Singer. Some of those cars I know where gems not just your average 964 and in unique colors no less. I suspect Singer reaps the proceeds of the parts they sell as well.
We can agree that far more were chopped up for their engines and parts long before Singer was an idea. I watched as hundreds were chopped up right and left year after year and the tubs just chopped up and discarded. I did that to many 914's. It usually took 3 to build a decent one back in the 90's before the internet. I suspect that half of the coupes were chopped up long before singer arrived. With so many attempting the Singer look and back dates galore. Now we have EV and hybrid cars using the platform, heaven help us. I suspect my few will be priceless one day even if they aren't stock.
I have one last project I plan to do one day an RSR street build. I have most all the parts i need and I will be using a damaged tub with high miles to build it. I could never sacrifice good car for any of my builds. I made the mistake once with my C2. It was a pristine low mileage C2 but prior to covid wasn't worth much and i decided to remove the sunroof. I find many like what i did but the purist not so much. Funny most consider me a purist but really don't know me all that well. I have no issue with a few builds as we had seen in the past but when hundreds of the finer examples end up going the way of a kit car leaving so few good ones and inflating the values unnecessarily that I have an issue with. These were the enthusiasts toy now they are the rich man's status symbol.
Some of you may know that I was an avid 964 backdater myself.
This was from 2010 to 2018 when a trend emerged worldwide and many tuners emulated Singer.
At that time I created a 1-page business case, which led to me stopping this type of conversion.
It shows the special situation for the Porsche 964 in the US market generated by Singer, but also worldwide.
Hope it's not too complicated. Feel free to leave a comment.
I follow the market regularly and have been dedicated to preserving the 964 ever since.
03-04-2023, 11:58 PM
