Original Owner 1989 964, 100% Original Paint, Strange Paint Thickness
10-02-2023, 01:18 PM
#1
Original Owner 1989 964, 100% Original Paint, Strange Paint Thickness
I am the original owner of a 1989 C4 with original paint. Pops and I walked up to Northland Porsche in Cincinnati and ordered it. We had never even seen one in the flesh.
Just finished an auction with BAT a couple weeks ago.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...ra-4-coupe-15/
High bidder never came up with the funds. Car is no longer for sale.
However, during the auction process, prospective bidders were anxious to see paint thickness numbers on my claim of"100% original paint" car.
I know nothing about paint or its thickness so I got ZAKIRAS garage in Cincinnati to use a paint meter.
Apparently those numbers were so weird that "AMMO911" (detailing empire owner) and "965" (nationally known for his knowledge and expertise in Porsche 964's) determined that
numbers do not lie and my car had been re-painted.
I knew the car had never been painted or even been touched by a buffer or polished by hand in 34 years, so I went on a mission to prove them wrong.
I bought my own paint meter and tested the entire car.
Here is what I came up with........drum roll......
Sunroof, headlight trim rings, both side view mirrors, fuel door, and both car doors measured 6 mil or less. (all these numbers were close in measurement to each other)
The rest of the car including the front hood and rear deck lid were all between 12 and 13 mil. (all these numbers were close in measurement to each other)
It's obvious that this is a factory paintjob because nobody in their right mind would ever paint a car like this.
It is also obvious that the 6 mil parts were painted separately than the rest of the car. Boot and decklid were on the body when it was painted.
Also keep in mind the fact that this car has never left my sight in 34 years. It IS original paint.
I figured that Hanz and Frans had too many beers the night before, but over DOUBLE the thickness makes absolutely no sense to me.
Can anyone shed light on this goofy factory paint ??
PS: I really have never polished this car, even for the BAT auction. Just infrequent hand washing.
Thank You !
Just finished an auction with BAT a couple weeks ago.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...ra-4-coupe-15/
High bidder never came up with the funds. Car is no longer for sale.
However, during the auction process, prospective bidders were anxious to see paint thickness numbers on my claim of"100% original paint" car.
I know nothing about paint or its thickness so I got ZAKIRAS garage in Cincinnati to use a paint meter.
Apparently those numbers were so weird that "AMMO911" (detailing empire owner) and "965" (nationally known for his knowledge and expertise in Porsche 964's) determined that
numbers do not lie and my car had been re-painted.
I knew the car had never been painted or even been touched by a buffer or polished by hand in 34 years, so I went on a mission to prove them wrong.
I bought my own paint meter and tested the entire car.
Here is what I came up with........drum roll......
Sunroof, headlight trim rings, both side view mirrors, fuel door, and both car doors measured 6 mil or less. (all these numbers were close in measurement to each other)
The rest of the car including the front hood and rear deck lid were all between 12 and 13 mil. (all these numbers were close in measurement to each other)
It's obvious that this is a factory paintjob because nobody in their right mind would ever paint a car like this.
It is also obvious that the 6 mil parts were painted separately than the rest of the car. Boot and decklid were on the body when it was painted.
Also keep in mind the fact that this car has never left my sight in 34 years. It IS original paint.
I figured that Hanz and Frans had too many beers the night before, but over DOUBLE the thickness makes absolutely no sense to me.
Can anyone shed light on this goofy factory paint ??
PS: I really have never polished this car, even for the BAT auction. Just infrequent hand washing.
Thank You !
10-02-2023, 03:05 PM
#2
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Sorry to hear the buyer fell through. The below quote was previously posted by Nathan Merz (Appraisal/Evaluation Chair, Porsche Club of America Technical Committee, Rennlist username @nathan1 ) on BaT as part of a different 964 auction. It is worth reposting here:
Folks are generally correct that in an ideal world a 964 with original paint should meter in the range of ~3.5-7mils. Generally the lowest readings will be bottoms of doors, sunroof, fuel door, jams which might read as low as 3-4 mils. Upper doors, front fenders, hood, roof, rear deck will usually be 4.5-6 mils and rear quarters are usually the highest and the most likely spot you might see 6 to the occasional 7.5-8 mils. In these instances most people will accept that the readings verify original paint BUT there are exceptions…. (I know people hate exceptions as they think a tool should provide 100% evidence, it just doesn’t, its a great tool but has its limits). These would be:
-These cars were painted by hand (meaning a real human being painted these cars) so they WILL have more variation than a modern robotically painted car)
-Quality Control (QC) - Since these were painted by hand and Porsche has a very stringent QC process, what do people think Porsche did when they found a dry spot, run, dirt, contamination, poor metallic distribution, etc in the paint? Do people think they threw the car away?? Of course not, they noted the issue, scuffed the area down and sent the car back thru paint to have that area remedied. Logic would tell you this was the case. In this case a car might meter high but would have none of the tell tales of aftermarket paint as it was painted prior to full assembly (such as overspray, back masking lines, hard edges, texture mismatch, etc)
-Port/Shipping Damage - Like above the cars oftentimes would suffer a scratch, damage, etc during transport, Porsche maintained a repair facility at the port that would remedy these items prior to shipping to the dealer. This also happened at the dealer level. Whether someone considers a repair prior to original delivery as “original” is up to debate, I could see a view either way. In this scenario the work was usually done to a very high standard but a few of the classic “tells” are often evident.
-Replaced Panels- Now paint meters can cut both ways. I know several cars that “meter” as original that I know for a fact aren’t. For example if you replace a hood and your painter is fairly skilled and doesn’t lay on a lot of paint, they can also get a number in the 4-5mils range, someone who doesn’t know that the paint meter is just ONE of a couple tools in an experts arsenal could be fooled. What are the other tools? EXPERIENCE; those of us in the business prior to the widespread use of paint meters know this. They are: evidence of panel removal/replacement, paint texture/color match, panel fitment, back masking/hard edges/rough edges, body tags, etc. The best analogy I use is that you can get a slew of medical tests but a smart person also wants to have their Dr perform a full physical exam. That expert/Dr. can then combine the lab tests along with their years of clinical experience to diagnose.
-My experience having worked at a Porsche dealer when 964’s were new, having been a Porsche nut for 30 years, having bought/sold/inspected/owned literally 100’s of 964’s, as well as having done a full 2-year auto body/paint training program (just because I was interested) is that for whatever reason Porsche’s of this era 1990-1994 have the widest range of paint meter values even on cars that IMO I would judge as original paint.
Everyone can form their own opinion, for some this will just cause too much debate and it will rule them out. For some they can accept that one of the above scenarios is likely, the key is the buyer just has to decide where they sit on that issue. I hope that helps!
-These cars were painted by hand (meaning a real human being painted these cars) so they WILL have more variation than a modern robotically painted car)
-Quality Control (QC) - Since these were painted by hand and Porsche has a very stringent QC process, what do people think Porsche did when they found a dry spot, run, dirt, contamination, poor metallic distribution, etc in the paint? Do people think they threw the car away?? Of course not, they noted the issue, scuffed the area down and sent the car back thru paint to have that area remedied. Logic would tell you this was the case. In this case a car might meter high but would have none of the tell tales of aftermarket paint as it was painted prior to full assembly (such as overspray, back masking lines, hard edges, texture mismatch, etc)
-Port/Shipping Damage - Like above the cars oftentimes would suffer a scratch, damage, etc during transport, Porsche maintained a repair facility at the port that would remedy these items prior to shipping to the dealer. This also happened at the dealer level. Whether someone considers a repair prior to original delivery as “original” is up to debate, I could see a view either way. In this scenario the work was usually done to a very high standard but a few of the classic “tells” are often evident.
-Replaced Panels- Now paint meters can cut both ways. I know several cars that “meter” as original that I know for a fact aren’t. For example if you replace a hood and your painter is fairly skilled and doesn’t lay on a lot of paint, they can also get a number in the 4-5mils range, someone who doesn’t know that the paint meter is just ONE of a couple tools in an experts arsenal could be fooled. What are the other tools? EXPERIENCE; those of us in the business prior to the widespread use of paint meters know this. They are: evidence of panel removal/replacement, paint texture/color match, panel fitment, back masking/hard edges/rough edges, body tags, etc. The best analogy I use is that you can get a slew of medical tests but a smart person also wants to have their Dr perform a full physical exam. That expert/Dr. can then combine the lab tests along with their years of clinical experience to diagnose.
-My experience having worked at a Porsche dealer when 964’s were new, having been a Porsche nut for 30 years, having bought/sold/inspected/owned literally 100’s of 964’s, as well as having done a full 2-year auto body/paint training program (just because I was interested) is that for whatever reason Porsche’s of this era 1990-1994 have the widest range of paint meter values even on cars that IMO I would judge as original paint.
Everyone can form their own opinion, for some this will just cause too much debate and it will rule them out. For some they can accept that one of the above scenarios is likely, the key is the buyer just has to decide where they sit on that issue. I hope that helps!
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10-02-2023, 06:58 PM
#3
Sorry to hear the buyer fell through. The below quote was previously posted by Nathan Merz (Appraisal/Evaluation Chair, Porsche Club of America Technical Committee, Rennlist username @nathan1 ) on BaT as part of a different 964 auction. It is worth reposting here:
However, these numbers are super weird leading one to believe that the entire body with front hood and rear deck lid, (minus sunroof, headlight trim rings, both side view mirrors, both passenger doors, and fuel door) was fully painted twice at the factory.
Never heard of such a thing.
Or….something else I can’t quite figure out.
Last edited by UMP; 10-02-2023 at 07:03 PM.
10-03-2023, 08:53 AM
#4
It could have also been painted at port before you purchased it.
10-03-2023, 10:58 AM
#5
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Rennlist Member
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You are making representations of original, unpolished paint, and if we take you at your word (and I don't have any reason not to), then I think the most likely explanation is there's a combination of factors at play - factory QC respray and/or pre-delivery port/dealer respray, in conjunction with the car never having been polished. With your car being single-stage paint, it will already meter higher than any other factory-original single-stage paint car that has been polished.
10-03-2023, 01:16 PM
#6
Three Wheelin'
Here is what I will say, I have zero reason to doubt your story or integrity and with you being the original owner you would know if the car has had repairs done during your ownership. SO here is what we know:
- Assuming a quality meter that has been benchmarked (it wouldn't hurt to benchmark your readings with another meter than has been tested) then your readings are both quite high in areas and also vary widely which is VERY unusual. So IF we assume your readings are correct, then at SOME point in the car's history somebody applied more paint than standard.
- So if it wasn't you it leaves 4 possibilities: 1. during the QC process the factory identified areas that they weren't happy with and they were sent the car back thru paint, but just in certain areas. 2. The car sustained some damage prior to arriving at the US port and the Porsche repair center made the repairs prior to the car shipping to the dealer. 3. The car sustained damage enroute to the dealer and the dealer had a local shop make repairs prior to selling the car to you. 4. Sometime during your ownership when the car was out of your control, it was damaged and someone without your knowledge/authorization made repairs (highly unlikely).
- In my 30 years being around these cars I have seen all of the 4 above. I worked at a Porsche dealer when these cars were new and 3-4 times per year a car would arrive with some flaw and we immediately sent them to our local repair center and never gave it a second thought. Nobody wants to buy a new Porsche with a scratch in the door from a careless truck driver, so we simply made the repair. We never told the owner as back in those times it didn't seem nor was it considered relevant. It is only in the past 15 years that people have become obsessed with original paint.
- Fair or not the vast majority of people will conclude the car has had paint work. Again as I said above, most people don't want to think critically or take the time to learn/gain the skills required to actually assess the car, so a nice, even, low number makes them feel good. In fairness this is ideal if you are going to sell as nobody will question you if you present readings in the expected ranges.
- Do NOT let this information or discussion affect how you feel about the car! It is the same car it has always been and we have entered a world where we are appreciating the cars more as objects of art versus a machine that we interact with that provides us joy. Go out drive and enjoy the car!
Last edited by nathan1; 10-03-2023 at 01:18 PM.
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10-03-2023, 02:04 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
I think this points out one of the flaws of online auctions like BAT.
The potential purchasers or their agents cannot physically inspect the car. I am not an expert so those who are can correct me but I believe that the use of paint thickness information would only form one aspect in determining whether or not a particular car has original paint.
Lucky for me I have no doubt that my car has been repainted because of the many body mods (front fender flair, rear fender flair, rear wing, side body panel mods) done by Strosek after they received the new car from Porsche.
I do not ever anticipate selling my car but if I did I would not list online purely because of those so called internet "experts" who are making claims without actually physically inspecting the car.
The potential purchasers or their agents cannot physically inspect the car. I am not an expert so those who are can correct me but I believe that the use of paint thickness information would only form one aspect in determining whether or not a particular car has original paint.
Lucky for me I have no doubt that my car has been repainted because of the many body mods (front fender flair, rear fender flair, rear wing, side body panel mods) done by Strosek after they received the new car from Porsche.
I do not ever anticipate selling my car but if I did I would not list online purely because of those so called internet "experts" who are making claims without actually physically inspecting the car.
Last edited by canuck964; 10-03-2023 at 02:10 PM.
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10-03-2023, 04:19 PM
#8
One comment I’ll make is that if a car has had paintwork and it was done to a high level does it really matter assuming the paintwork wasn’t done due to severe damage?
Cosmetic wear/tear happens even if you don’t drive the car. Kids drag their bike pedal or handlebar across the paint, shopping bag swings into the door, something falls off the garage wall and hits the car. You get the picture. Those are all minor issues and a proper body shop can repair to as good as or better than new (speaking from a recent incident with my wife’s MB wagon) so why does it matter. I used to be a stickler for original paint mainly because body shops couldn’t seem to replicate the quality but that is definitely not true anymore.
Cosmetic wear/tear happens even if you don’t drive the car. Kids drag their bike pedal or handlebar across the paint, shopping bag swings into the door, something falls off the garage wall and hits the car. You get the picture. Those are all minor issues and a proper body shop can repair to as good as or better than new (speaking from a recent incident with my wife’s MB wagon) so why does it matter. I used to be a stickler for original paint mainly because body shops couldn’t seem to replicate the quality but that is definitely not true anymore.
10-03-2023, 05:08 PM
#9
Nothing worse than a ****bag deadbeat non paying high bidder….wasting everyone’s time and spitting in the face of a seller who works hard to present a great auction. Wish there were more consequences for it. Hopefully BaT kept his $5K. They should give half to the seller.
10-03-2023, 05:16 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
One comment I’ll make is that if a car has had paintwork and it was done to a high level does it really matter assuming the paintwork wasn’t done due to severe damage?
Cosmetic wear/tear happens even if you don’t drive the car. Kids drag their bike pedal or handlebar across the paint, shopping bag swings into the door, something falls off the garage wall and hits the car. You get the picture. Those are all minor issues and a proper body shop can repair to as good as or better than new (speaking from a recent incident with my wife’s MB wagon) so why does it matter. I used to be a stickler for original paint mainly because body shops couldn’t seem to replicate the quality but that is definitely not true anymore.
Cosmetic wear/tear happens even if you don’t drive the car. Kids drag their bike pedal or handlebar across the paint, shopping bag swings into the door, something falls off the garage wall and hits the car. You get the picture. Those are all minor issues and a proper body shop can repair to as good as or better than new (speaking from a recent incident with my wife’s MB wagon) so why does it matter. I used to be a stickler for original paint mainly because body shops couldn’t seem to replicate the quality but that is definitely not true anymore.
For instance, I'm going to paint my hood soon. I will have pics of the condition beforehand so it's clear I painted due to some large rock chips that can't be blended well, not because of an accident.
By no means saying that is the case here, but that's the way these things work.
10-03-2023, 05:32 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
I'll add a data point to this. I also have an 89 C4, although mine hasn't been in my possession since new; it has had 4 prior owners, one of which is my father from 2004 until I took over stewardship. I do, however, have very detailed records of service and maintenance since new in organized binders including details of warranty work for a failed crankshaft pin which resulted in replaced pistons, cylinders and crankcase in 1993 (so my car is not numbers matching). I do believe the paint to be original, but I also have some strange meter readings. The car varies between 3-6mil depending on the panel, however the hood and roof both measure higher at 9-10mil, while the sunroof is in line with the rest of the body. I don't believe the hood has been resprayed as there is no evidence of it nor any records of it, and I can't see why you would respray a hood and roof but not the sunroof or anything else....I assumed damage at the factory and sprayed over before delivery...
In the end it doesn't matter and I don't care. To the OP, I don't think its worth your time going on a mission to prove anything - if you're keeping the car it doesn't matter, and if you're selling it I'm certain there are enough people who either believe you or don't care that it won't be material. Drive the car and have fun.
Cheers,
Tom
In the end it doesn't matter and I don't care. To the OP, I don't think its worth your time going on a mission to prove anything - if you're keeping the car it doesn't matter, and if you're selling it I'm certain there are enough people who either believe you or don't care that it won't be material. Drive the car and have fun.
Cheers,
Tom
10-03-2023, 11:24 PM
#12
No paint expert but hand wet sand a poor 1990s paint job trying to go thru it and the original mint green but not the factory primer I believe to be white to repaint her. At the time I thought it was strange that on almost every panel was spots with a light yellow primer on them. Now I believe they were the factory or dealer touchups
10-04-2023, 10:26 AM
#13
Impossible because they would had to have painted the entire car minus doors, sunroof panel, fuel door, headlight trim rings and side mirrors, at port.
Whatever was done, was done at the factory.
Remember the entire car's paint thickness is over DOUBLE that of doors, sunroof panel, fuel door, headlight trim rings and side mirrors,
That AIN'T happening at the port.
The funny part is that this strange paint job actually PROVES that it's original paint. Think about it!
Whatever was done, was done at the factory.
Remember the entire car's paint thickness is over DOUBLE that of doors, sunroof panel, fuel door, headlight trim rings and side mirrors,
That AIN'T happening at the port.
The funny part is that this strange paint job actually PROVES that it's original paint. Think about it!
10-04-2023, 10:34 AM
#14
Nothing worse than a ****bag deadbeat non paying high bidder….wasting everyone’s time and spitting in the face of a seller who works hard to present a great auction. Wish there were more consequences for it. Hopefully BaT kept his $5K. They should give half to the seller.
It was a real nightmare. Promising a wire transfer every day for two weeks. It drove me crazy. It's an emotional thing. I have memories of my father and I buying the car and all the time and effort getting it ready for, even spending 15K a couple weeks before the auction getting it in top notch shape. I really wanted the buyer to be happy with this car. The car was part of my life for 34 years,
I think someone else might be interested from the auction. We shall see.
I really don't want to sell, but then I never really drive it that much.
Getting old, and tired. It happens.
10-04-2023, 10:36 AM
#15
You are making representations of original, unpolished paint, and if we take you at your word (and I don't have any reason not to), then I think the most likely explanation is there's a combination of factors at play - factory QC respray and/or pre-delivery port/dealer respray, in conjunction with the car never having been polished. With your car being single-stage paint, it will already meter higher than any other factory-original single-stage paint car that has been polished.
Will a factory respray an entire car ??